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US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

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Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#291

Post by fspeech »

Natsu wrote: post #278
fspeech wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because first amendment is to limit government power. Private companies are not obliged to give you right to free speech. In theory private companies compete against each other but government has a monopoly on legalized violence.

Yes, that's the legal claim. What's the moral claim?

The last point I made is the moral argument "in theory private companies compete against each other but government has a monopoly on legalized violence." Government must be constrained because you can't get away from it.

Now it is true commercial monopolies can also exert coercion on their customers, so we have antimonopoly laws. These laws likely need updates to deal with natural monopolies coming from the strong network effect in the internet era. And the interaction with free speech right in social networks will be an extremely challenging issue.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#292

Post by valuearb »

Natsu wrote: post #278
fspeech wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because first amendment is to limit government power. Private companies are not obliged to give you right to free speech. In theory private companies compete against each other but government has a monopoly on legalized violence.

Yes, that's the legal claim. What's the moral claim?

The moral claim is private companies maintain private property for the benefit of their customers.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#293

Post by valuearb »

nrmitchi wrote: post #19
technoplato wrote: post #8

I’m genuinely curious what the perceived threat is here. Is it as simple as “China is going to read everyone’s stuff and use machine learning to figure out what the cool kids are doing and then brainwash them?”

My understanding is that there are quite a few perceived threats, but all of them apply to large US corporations as well. If you collect enough information on people, they can be manipulated to certain beliefs or actions. This is the same information that Facebook and Google use for advertising purposes, similar information to the Cambridge Analytica events, and the risk is China (or a nefarious actor with this infor…

Summation: Censorship by US is good, if it keeps you from hearing things the current administration does not want, such as ways to troll the presidents rallies.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#294

Post by valuearb »

asdff wrote: post #233
wonnage wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Google/Twitter/Facebook any different? Lemme guess your answer: well, they're on our side because it's an American company, and we can control them! It's been 10+ years of these companies and no meaningful oversight has been exerted, at least not on behalf of users. Not after: 1. Self-admitted election interference https://www.vox.com/2017/4/28/15476142/facebook-report-trump... 2. Tracking and targeting indivi…

I don't think google/twitter/facebook are any different than tiktock. Honestly, I'd love to see something done with these companies too, since it's clear that making microphones available to anyone, whether they are a human or a script, just leads to noise that overwhelms any expert level signal on world events or domain knowledge. I'm not sure what can be done at this point, though, it's like pandora's box has been…

Oh Lawdy, people are saying things on social platforms I disagree with!

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#295

Post by zepto »

This has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with foreign policy.

China doesn’t allow US social apps. For historical reasons to do with attempts to establish trust, the US has allowed Chinese social apps.

That trust is arguably no longer reasonable to hold.

It is entirely reasonable for the US to want to trade with China on an equal footing.

It’s notable that China is the worlds largest economy, and proclaims the superiority of their socialist system over western democracy.

Obviously the US claims to be the worlds largest economy, and proclaims the superiority of western democracy over socialism.

Regardless of who is right, there is no legitimate argument supporting a continued imbalance in the playing field.

Trump may be doing a stupid and clumsy thing here, but the motivations seem reasonable.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#296

Post by ergocoder »

bambax wrote: post #143

Why does the rest of the world tolerate American bullying is beyond me. At least in Europe, we should ban every Facebook app immediately. This would have the added benefit of letting regional apps emerge.

Because you haven't seen what China has done with territory disputes.

South China sea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Phillipines, Tibet, India, Japan.

China literally builds a fake island to claim the territory.

China doesn't aim to trade with us. They just want to take the land.

When US wants to install an army in these countries, they at least make a business deal that has expiry date.

---

Europe and US are in a very strong relationship. They can work out whatever dispute they have. Europe and US generally want a win-win situation with each other.

Can we say the same about China? Nope.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#297

Post by ergocoder »

Aperocky wrote: post #230
pantalaimon wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany just offered to invest $1.2 billion in LNG terminals if US allows them to continue with Nordstream 2. https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Germany-O...

Thanks for the link, that's an interesting read. The media is trying its darnedest to paint China as the biggest bully, except it doesn't even compare to US in real world.

Really? South China Sea? Tibet? Or even an island dispute with Japan?

It's way worse than any worst business deal.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#298

Post by dang »

bleepblorp wrote: post #51
tstrimple wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TikTok kids are mean to Trump.

It's interesting that this explanation gets aggressively downvoted every time it is posted. It's a narrative that someone seems to want to bury. It is the explanation that best fits the facts, given that talk of banning TikTok didn't gain traction until after Trump's indoor rally turned up empty. I suspect the empty rally was the tipping point that gave those who wanted to get rid of TikTok for competitive reasons en…

The post was obviously downvoted for being unsubstantive and flamebait, which is against the site guidelines. Your comment also broke multiple guidelines: the one against insinuations of astroturfing/shilling/spying, and the one against going on about downvotes. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#299

Post by Natsu »

fspeech wrote: post #291
Natsu wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's the legal claim. What's the moral claim?

The last point I made is the moral argument "in theory private companies compete against each other but government has a monopoly on legalized violence." Government must be constrained because you can't get away from it. Now it is true commercial monopolies can also exert coercion on their customers, so we have antimonopoly laws. These laws likely need updates to deal with natural monopolies coming from the strong ne…

It seems to me that you agree that morally, companies shouldn't be exerting monopoly power in this area, otherwise we wouldn't need updates to the law, so I won't quibble.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#300

Post by dahfizz »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #159
dahfizz wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>is an act of a legislature Seems pretty clear that this does not apply to actions of the commerce department because they are not a legislature. They are not finding China / the apps guilty of a crime or punishing them for that crime. Even if Congress issued this ban, Congress has the explicit right to regulate commerce in the constitution. Trade embargo and sanctions are a very well established power of the governm…

the commerce department because they are not a legislature The Commerce Department operates as a proxy for Congress. They were set up to fully codify and implement the broader regulations enacted by Congress. Congress can't create a proxy that has the power to do things that the Congress itself doesn't have the power to do itself. If you want to pretend that this isn't being done under the aegis of Congress but rathe…

> The Commerce Department operates as a proxy for Congress.

That's how the government works. Congress writes the laws and the executive branch executes the laws... That doesn't make the executive branch part of the legislative branch.

"In the United States, the Department of Commerce is an executive department of the federal government concerned with promoting economic growth. This organization's main purpose is to create jobs, promote economic growth, encourage sustainable development and _block harmful trade practices of other nations_[1]". The department of commerce is literally a part of the executive branch. Of course they operate with the support of Congress, they are implementing the laws that Congress writes. That's how the government works. I don't know what point you're trying to make.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_...

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