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US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

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Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#231

Post by anon9001 »

2bitencryption wrote: post #200
gameswithgo wrote: post #105

We see another side effect of app stores: gives governments easy leverage to tell you what you can do with your computer.

I hadn't even thought of this. What if WeChat was a traditional installer (.msi, .app, .exe, .run) that you download from some sever and which is mirrored all over the place? Does the same authority apply? Can the government say "it's illegal to have this binary executable?" Or is this only possible because there's one central repository for these platforms, and the government can simply compel the platform (legal an…

Sure, they can, but they won't bother. The average American isn't going to download software on a PC. They have an iPhone or Android device as their primary computer. Banning the app stores is enough to get the manipulation of the masses that they want.

From what I understand, China does the same. Ban the easy things, only bother to crackdown on the harder things (like VPN or cryptocurrency) when they start to get out of control.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#232

Post by chrchang523 »

jpmoral wrote: post #226
chrchang523 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And whose fault is it that "all other similar apps are banned in China"? Given that context, without overwhelming evidence that there's absolutely no connection between the Chinese government and WeChat, this is fair play, and the only valid arguments against this move are tactical rather than legal.

>And whose fault is it that "all other similar apps are banned in China"? I'm not sure that 'China is doing it too' has any bearing on the lawfulness of US government action. >without overwhelming evidence that there's absolutely no connection between the Chinese government and WeChat I think the burden of proof goes the other way.

If the argument was restricted to a claim that the technical details of the ban should be slightly different, you might have a point. But the Constitution is not a suicide pact. Something along these lines has been compelled by geopolitical game theory for years, as soon as it became clear that the preferred no-retaliation tactic was not going to work here. Laws will be updated as necessary to adapt to the strategic imperative.

As a Chinese person, I'll take this over internment camps any day of the week.

edit: To downvoters: I lived and worked in Shenzhen and Beijing in 2011-12. I aspired to do work there that was useful to humanity as a whole, both inside and outside of China, and it was already perfectly obvious then that I'd need to make use of my work not require any trust in the Chinese government. Not because of an existing law, but because of common sense regarding how much the rest of the world was going to continue putting up with. So I open-sourced everything that mattered, and that work did in fact go on to become trusted by professionals on both sides of the Great Firewall. Perhaps I'm still setting an unreasonable standard, but it's not one that I didn't try to meet myself.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#233

Post by asdff »

wonnage wrote: post #37
6DM wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

General election interference, manipulating public perception by constantly suggesting pro-CCP propaganda, aggravating the general public to turn on each other, tracking vocal anti-CCP individuals and potentially targeting them while traveling abroad. That's a few off the top of my head.

How is Google/Twitter/Facebook any different? Lemme guess your answer: well, they're on our side because it's an American company, and we can control them! It's been 10+ years of these companies and no meaningful oversight has been exerted, at least not on behalf of users. Not after: 1. Self-admitted election interference https://www.vox.com/2017/4/28/15476142/facebook-report-trump... 2. Tracking and targeting indivi…

I don't think google/twitter/facebook are any different than tiktock. Honestly, I'd love to see something done with these companies too, since it's clear that making microphones available to anyone, whether they are a human or a script, just leads to noise that overwhelms any expert level signal on world events or domain knowledge. I'm not sure what can be done at this point, though, it's like pandora's box has been opened. Now that the playbook is there, the internet is legitimately polluted for good. There will always be some other social network to trivially exert manipulation on, since humans are just wired to give into this tribalism as a species at the end of the day.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#234

Post by romwell »

ardy42 wrote: post #151
romwell wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, let's follow CCP practices in the US, that'll show 'em!

> Yeah, let's follow CCP practices in the US, that'll show 'em! To a certain extent, yes. A lot of foreign relations is about reciprocation and self-interest. For many, many years the US tolerated CCP polices that hurt its interests with the hope that, over time, that would cause the CCP would liberalize. That hasn't happened, and it's clear it won't happen anytime soon.

Of course, reciprocation is always the answer.

We should also reciprocate CCP's oppression of Uighurs in concentration camps by ramping up our oppression in ICE camps, right?

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#235

Post by martin__ »

bmitc wrote: post #194
martin__ wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the border restriction was just about having been in China in the last 14 days. Couldn't she get back into the US if she went to a different country first for 14 days?

No. The U.S. refuses to even process visas. Early on, the U.S. initially held her passport (a foreign one at that!) for over a month, preventing travel to countries she had valid visas to. When she eventually did once the passport was returned, the U.S. canceled her appointment, forcing travel back to China. Such foreign visas have now expired. The U.S. continues to allow appointments to be made at embassies and cons…

That’s rough.

We are in a similar situation. She’s got a tourist visa though, and while we think it would technically be possible for her to enter the US, we’re kind of afraid to try.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#236

Post by filoleg »

Bhilai wrote: post #102
6DM wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

General election interference, manipulating public perception by constantly suggesting pro-CCP propaganda, aggravating the general public to turn on each other, tracking vocal anti-CCP individuals and potentially targeting them while traveling abroad. That's a few off the top of my head.

US interferes in elections in many countries[1] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/the-us-has...

>US interferes in elections in many countries

Sure, and I totally understand if those other countries decide to take steps to prevent that interference from happening. It is perfectly reasonable for them to want to do so, just like it is for the US.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#237

Post by asdff »

neves wrote: post #165

What really makes me afraid is that the USA Gov is so scared of a foreign social network app, they must really know how powerful are these apps. How would I trust the social networks under the American Gov?

You wouldn't. It's not what tick tock would do, that can be achieved just as easily on any other social network as is routinely done, it's that you can't pay tick tock to do whatever you want to do like with an american company.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#238

Post by frequentnapper »

Bhilai wrote: post #94
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling the ban evil is a bit hyperbolic IMO, or maybe just incomplete. Phones with the software could easily be compromised. Users with the software can be profiled and tracked by the Chinese government pretty easily. The Chinese market bans most of America's social media software, and we're entering a trade war. All these are real, legitimate reasons to ban it.

> The Chinese market bans most of America's social media software, and we're entering a trade war. America is not China and should not frame its policies based on China's policies. While, I agree there is a need to retaliate but 'be like China' is hardly the way to do it.

Except that it should frame its policies based on game theory if it ever plans to survive against China. Which is exactly what it's doing. The time to take the high road against bad actors is over.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#239

Post by frequentnapper »

romwell wrote: post #234
ardy42 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, let's follow CCP practices in the US, that'll show 'em! To a certain extent, yes. A lot of foreign relations is about reciprocation and self-interest. For many, many years the US tolerated CCP polices that hurt its interests with the hope that, over time, that would cause the CCP would liberalize. That hasn't happened, and it's clear it won't happen anytime soon.

Of course, reciprocation is always the answer. We should also reciprocate CCP's oppression of Uighurs in concentration camps by ramping up our oppression in ICE camps, right?

The parent didn't say reciprocation is always the answer. Stop putting words in people's mouth and derailing the conversation. In this case it makes sense to do a tit-for-tat ban to hurt them.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#240

Post by filoleg »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #150
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should Google, Facebook, Netflix be banned in Europe? Is there a decent European alternative to Google and Facebook?

If they banned them one would pop up real quick.

You make it sound like the main reason Europe still doesn't have a viable Google/FB competitor is the fact that their citizens have access to Google/FB.

I have a strong feeling that it might not be the case at all, given that Russia also has access to Google/FB, and yet they have their own viable and massively popular competitors (Yandex for Google, VK for Facebook).

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