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US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

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Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#221

Post by tobias3 »

jlmorton wrote: post #152
bambax wrote: post #143

Why does the rest of the world tolerate American bullying is beyond me. At least in Europe, we should ban every Facebook app immediately. This would have the added benefit of letting regional apps emerge.

One big reason is that America controls the SWIFT network for settling international transactions. If you hate American commercial bullying, perhaps the biggest thing to be excited about is Europe's SWIFT-alternative, INSTEX. The world is so reliant on SWIFT currently that America can grind your commerce to a halt if you don't refuse to do business with entities it doesn't want you to. (I realize this current TikTok…

"SWIFT" is already in Belgium and INSTEX isn't a SWIFT replacement.

This isn't a technical problem (one can transfer money other ways as well, for example). If an entity does business with Iran it risks being put on the US Entity List (think Huawei) or other sanctions. US influence currently is still far reaching and many businesses don't want to risk (future) complications for little gain (Iran isn't that large of an economy). The calculus changes if it is a market as large as China, though.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#222

Post by filoleg »

bgorman wrote: post #199
SoylentYellow wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am focusing on WeChat only with this comment. It is not narrowly tailored or least restrictive. Narrowly tailored means the law must be precisely written to minimize the 1st Amendment impact. In this case, this order prevents millions of Americans from using their primary (and oftentimes only) method to communicate with family in China. There is no practical alternative to WeChat as all other similar apps are banne…

Honest question: Can you just use email?

Yeah, and if I ban you from using postal services, you can just rely on using pigeon carriers for mail.

If what I said sounds ridiculous, that's exactly how your email proposition sounds to people who are used to WeChat. We can argue semantics and details, like "but it isn't the same, because this and that, etc.". But, at the end of the day, if email was even close to being as convenient as WeChat for the purposes that most people use WeChat for, people would've been using email already.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#224

Post by fma »

withinboredom wrote: post #142
rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a big pain, but surely they'll find another way to keep in touch, though? What do western people do in China to keep in touch with their families back home, when all the western social media apps are banned? It's hard for me to believe that a state-backed communications app is the only option available to Chinese expats.

> What do western people do in China to keep in touch with their families back home, when all the western social media apps are banned? They change the country of their app store.

Huh? It's not just apps are banned from the store but you can't get out of the Great Firewall even if you have the apps.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#225

Post by failuser »

kelnos wrote: post #132
vbezhenar wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine that Russia bans Facebook because of those reasons. Do you think that would be a good move?

Doesn't Russia have VK, and isn't it the most popular site in Russia? FB is certainly popular in Russia, but it's not like people there wouldn't have another place to go if FB were banned.

The sort of people that use Facebook in Russia know their way around a ban.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#226

Post by jpmoral »

chrchang523 wrote: post #218
SoylentYellow wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am focusing on WeChat only with this comment. It is not narrowly tailored or least restrictive. Narrowly tailored means the law must be precisely written to minimize the 1st Amendment impact. In this case, this order prevents millions of Americans from using their primary (and oftentimes only) method to communicate with family in China. There is no practical alternative to WeChat as all other similar apps are banne…

And whose fault is it that "all other similar apps are banned in China"? Given that context, without overwhelming evidence that there's absolutely no connection between the Chinese government and WeChat, this is fair play, and the only valid arguments against this move are tactical rather than legal.

>And whose fault is it that "all other similar apps are banned in China"?

I'm not sure that 'China is doing it too' has any bearing on the lawfulness of US government action.

>without overwhelming evidence that there's absolutely no connection between the Chinese government and WeChat

I think the burden of proof goes the other way.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#227

Post by simplify »

Natsu wrote: post #212
Animats wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is what the ACLU is saying.[1] "Selectively banning entire platforms violates the First Amendment and harms freedom of speech online." Expect a lawsuit in days, if not hours. [1] https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/dont-ban-tiktok-and-we...

I tend to agree with them here, but the thing that always gets me is how many people will support these same actions if, instead of being done by the elected government, they're done by unelected internet companies that hold monopoly power. I get why that may be more of a problem legally, but not why so many people agree with it morally, because they come from people not otherwise inclined to agree with the propositi…

That's definitely a concern, but the more pressing concern is allowing the government to hold this power – something I think we can all agree shouldn't be allowed (without due process).

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#228

Post by fma »

technoplato wrote: post #8

I’m genuinely curious what the perceived threat is here. Is it as simple as “China is going to read everyone’s stuff and use machine learning to figure out what the cool kids are doing and then brainwash them?”

My biggest issue is the brainwashing aspect. Saw another commenter say that it's exporting Chinese censorship. You can get banned for what you say. Pro-China and anti-American articles spread, anti-China gets banned.

Facebook and Google does tracking, but I can post as much anti-Trump material as I want. Try putting anti Xi material on WeChat and see what happens.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#229

Post by failuser »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #147
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Users with the software can be profiled and tracked by the Chinese government pretty easily. This is true of all apps coming out of the US with the NSA. Should Google, Facebook, Netflix be banned in Europe? > and we're entering a trade war. The trade war started a while ago and I'm pretty sure China is winning it.

> Should Google, Facebook, Netflix be banned in Europe? Is there a decent European alternative to Google and Facebook?

Yandex and VK /s

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#230

Post by Aperocky »

pantalaimon wrote: post #160
bambax wrote: post #143

Why does the rest of the world tolerate American bullying is beyond me. At least in Europe, we should ban every Facebook app immediately. This would have the added benefit of letting regional apps emerge.

Germany just offered to invest $1.2 billion in LNG terminals if US allows them to continue with Nordstream 2. https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Germany-O...

Thanks for the link, that's an interesting read.

The media is trying its darnedest to paint China as the biggest bully, except it doesn't even compare to US in real world.

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