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Germany will violate international agreements with Unitary Patent, says FFII

ffii.org

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Re: Germany will violate international agreements with Unitary Patent, says FFII

#111
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you mean, but it's a civil service with constitutional powers :). And it's designed to 'one day' be 'Presidential'. Von der Leyen, in her first speech talked about her want to create the 'United States of Europe'. Not only does this hint at the Presidential nature of the role, but also points out the problematic issue with 'lack of democracy' in that voters were told after the election that their leader ha…

When 'one day' it's presedential it will be voted for by the European parliament. This is what 'United States of Europe' means. The EU has been on a course to more democracy and more power for the parliament (e.g. Treaty of Lisbon), so I'm not sure why people assume this stops, argue that it is not happening or argue that it is reversing - when it is not - e.g. see GDPR.

This is essentially not true and misunderstanding of why the EU exists in the first place.

"When 'one day' it's presedential it will be voted for by the European parliament."

And who will propose and design the legislation?

The Executive!

Definitely not elected MEPs, because they are barred from doing so!

MEP's, in 2020 remain forbidden from initiating or enacting legislation. They have the bare minimum power to legitimize the institution as 'democratic'.

The EU is the only 'Constitutional Democratic' entity in the modern world wherein legislation is created and controlled at the executive level.

You might technically be correct in asserting that the MEPs have 'more power' after the Lisbon treaty, very little has changed, and there is no reason for them to change it.

Not until the Treaty of Lisbon were elected MEPs even required to be consulted (!!) for the selection of the executive! Constitutionally they were irrelevant. Only since the Lisbon treaty do MEPs technically have to be consulted, and even then, it's merely 'consultation'. It's not binding.

Never in the history of the world has power been given to the people unless they have basically 'forced' it, by using one lever of power or another.

The EU is very well designed by the elite to avoid populism and 'interference' by organized or populist plebes.

It's the perfect mechanism to have control and enact legislation with minimum of oversight, minimum of media coverage, minimum of procedural problems from the plebes.

The elite can argue, but only among themselves.

The EU has negative incentive to add more democratic oversight, because in their view, it just adds more problems and risk to the situation - god forbid a 'Donald Trump' should be elected in Europe.

The only way voters will get more power is if they take it, either through MEP insurrection, or, one or two state powers have some kind of reason to push for it. I don't think either of these cases is on the table, I can't even imagine a scenario will happen.

So if 'the entire history of civilization' is a guide, there will be net less democracy in Europe, as they give very little power to MEPs, and move more powers away from national assemblies towards the EU, where unelected bureaucrats and members of the inner circle can do 'what they think is best'.

And there's nothing anyone can do about it.

As for GDPR, yes, it was nice that MEPs could put up a fuss and have some parts of legislation changed, but they were not the shepherds of this legislation by any means, it was written and controlled 'from above' at all times.

FYI here is the original draft from 2012 [1]

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20121203024154/http://ec.europa....

Re: Germany will violate international agreements with Unitary Patent, says FFII

#112
post #14
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I haven’t heard about this Unitary Patent Court. That's probably intentional.

What do you mean by that? Do you seriously think that somebody (who exactly?) is suppressing news about this court? Isn't it _a lot_ more probable that this is simply a highly technical issue that doesn't get a lot of attention? As somebody who is somewhat invested into EU law but not into patent law I have already heard about it by the way. I'm always very skeptical about this sort of vague accusation, implying that…

> What do you mean by that? Do you seriously think that somebody (who exactly?) is suppressing news about this court?

Why are you putting words in my mouth? Especially the "seriously" is completely out of place since I never said what you claim I did, so why do get worked up over it?

Where was I implying a conspiracy? Did you consider that there are other theories that are consistent with my original statement - for instance, it's completely conceivable that a skilled legislation publishes information about a proposed law of they know it's likely to create a backlash in (some parts of) the media in a more subdued way, specifically in order to lower the odds for getting said negative press.

I agree that this "suppressing news" theory that you brought to the table is nonsense. But it's also not necessary if you've got a PR person who knows their job.

Re: Germany will violate international agreements with Unitary Patent, says FFII

#113
post #7

As a german i am quite sure they will ratify software patents. The very sad part is the people deciding this have absolutely no understanding what they are doing and that they open the box of pandora. There is currently almost no invest money in european startups, and if everyone of these startups is liable for bogus software patents they will have absolutely no chance on getting big.

> The very sad part is the people deciding this have absolutely no understanding what they are doing

I'm all for Hanlon's Razor, but its application to IP, and especially software patents, is getting a little strained over the years.

Re: Germany will violate international agreements with Unitary Patent, says FFII

#114
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of political labels have a different, often opposite, meaning in Europe compared to the US. A liberal in Europe refers to classical liberalism. We also have many political parties, so a liberal here is not necessary a christian conservative. Politics is more nuanced.

Did you reply to the right comment? What do US political designations have to do with European and EU politics? In any case, "a lot of political labels" implies several, and I'm not sure there are more than one or two that fit this description.

GP had cast "conservative" and "liberal" as mutually exclusive descriptions of the political spectrum: parent clarified that in Europe, those 2 terms mean the same thing. Mostly.

Re: Germany will violate international agreements with Unitary Patent, says FFII

#115
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With von der Leyen being president, I am pretty sure we make the wrong decision. Yes, some Europeans might think she looks sympathetic, especially those that don't know her well because of language barriers. That she is on the position is testament to the democratic dysfunction of the Union. Officially she is in a conservative party, which eastern European countries liked very much. If we want to take democracy serio…

"That she is on the position is testament to the democratic dysfunction of the Union." ??? That she has her position is the most glaring evidence of 'democratic dysfunction'. Nobody voted for her, she was unknown before the election. The very few people that voted in the EU elected voted for something else, after the election 'the true powers' decided to push the ostensible candidate aside, and behind closed doors wi…

The thing about the EU is, it's not a democratic government. It's atreaty organization that sometimes takes on responsibilities like a government.

This dual identity has been a boon in some political situations in the past, but it is also a serious liability. Von der Leyen got the job in a usual way for a treaty organization, but she is much more political than some technocrat. There are factions that like it each way, and her job is to play both ends against the middle.

You don't need a democratic mandate to appoint the head of a civil service. You definitely do when choosing the leader of the (de facto) government!

It is increasingly clear that we need a supranational organization in Europe which IS a democratic government. Seems like it would be a natural fit for the EU to be that organization... and it looks like it is headed in that direction. That means it's our role as citizens to push for more democratic behavior at every turn.

Re: Germany will violate international agreements with Unitary Patent, says FFII

#116
post #7

As a german i am quite sure they will ratify software patents. The very sad part is the people deciding this have absolutely no understanding what they are doing and that they open the box of pandora. There is currently almost no invest money in european startups, and if everyone of these startups is liable for bogus software patents they will have absolutely no chance on getting big.

How do you know they have no understanding? Perhaps they got shares in large software companies and just want to eliminate competition. It just seems like corruption to me.

I wouldn't be surprised, "free gifts" is exactly what they've been given from the car industry for years.

Re: Germany will violate international agreements with Unitary Patent, says FFII

#117
post #7

As a german i am quite sure they will ratify software patents. The very sad part is the people deciding this have absolutely no understanding what they are doing and that they open the box of pandora. There is currently almost no invest money in european startups, and if everyone of these startups is liable for bogus software patents they will have absolutely no chance on getting big.

Does the government think that if they had software patents they could get a Facebook too?

> Does the government think that if they had software patents they could get a Facebook too?

It'd be an amusing thought, given Facebook's success was particularly aided by patents not getting in their way and they've very rarely utilized patents to go after other companies (they pursued BlackBerry in 2018 after BlackBerry first filed a patent lawsuit against them).

I don't think the so called Six Degrees patent [1] for example was ever ultimately used to harm any companies, with Reid Hoffman and Mark Pincus choosing not to try to use it against Facebook or any other networks (Twitter, Snapchat, etc). Their various investing activities into some of those companies certainly may have played a role in that restraint (with Zynga being heavily dependent on Facebook for much of its history also).

[1a] https://patents.google.com/patent/US6175831B1/en

[1b] https://www.cnet.com/news/investors-snub-friendster-in-paten...

[1c] https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/who-owns-facebooks-mos...

Re: Germany will violate international agreements with Unitary Patent, says FFII

#118
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When 'one day' it's presedential it will be voted for by the European parliament. This is what 'United States of Europe' means. The EU has been on a course to more democracy and more power for the parliament (e.g. Treaty of Lisbon), so I'm not sure why people assume this stops, argue that it is not happening or argue that it is reversing - when it is not - e.g. see GDPR.

This is essentially not true and misunderstanding of why the EU exists in the first place. "When 'one day' it's presedential it will be voted for by the European parliament." And who will propose and design the legislation? The Executive! Definitely not elected MEPs, because they are barred from doing so! MEP's, in 2020 remain forbidden from initiating or enacting legislation. They have the bare minimum power to legi…

On EU democracy, maybe you need to write another chapter about the Council of Ministers.

In this particular file of the UPCA, Ministers have a direct conflict of interests, as their ministries would get money for the renewal fees of the Unitary Patent.

Re: Germany will violate international agreements with Unitary Patent, says FFII

#119
post #36
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At least we're not the only country wanting to violate international agreements at present Countries do it all the time and there are conflicts because it all the time everywhere. UK is slightly different because EU is much stronger than UK, withdrawal agreement is important to keep food, medicine and skills flowing between borders. UK government is planning and making first successful steps towards breaking withdra…

Well, it happens but rarely does it happen exclusively in the West where there is a lot at stake. (Would be interested in counterexamples) International law, as an attempt to tame excesses of diplomacy, is something that has lifted up the West. It's brought order and prosperity. This move is yet another jenga brick taken out of the liberal West, thereby weakening the EU. The EU really needs to bother...

Just googling for:

France breaks international law https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20181017-amnesty-france-vi...

Spain breaks international law: https://www.icj.org/spain-conviction-of-catalonian-leaders-v...

Poland breaks international law https://www.ecre.org/human-rights-organisations-poland-viola...

I don't think I need to search for any about USA, each of us remembers at least 5 from very recent history.

Re: Germany will violate international agreements with Unitary Patent, says FFII

#120
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU do it all the time. But I guess that doesn't count for some reason or other...

Could you give one example? (Of making an agreement and then threatening to intentionally break it very soon after?)

airbus state aid is the biggest recent example: knowingly providing unlawful subsidy against WTO rules

the EU ignored its WTO state aid comittments when it suited it, and now is trying to force a much much stronger version of the rules that it routinely breaks, onto the UK

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