Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#71

Post by Answerawake » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

With all due respect: I think this thinking comes from a massive place of privilege. With the sea of unemployed entry level developers who would kill for a job with FAANG, getting into Facebook for the chance to earn that kind of money and work with such experienced people would probably be a dream come true for many of them. I have even met so many people with years of experience that are on the outside of the FAANG wall looking in with jealousy and longing. You can only act this entitled when you have met your needs career wise. It just seems wrong to cause trouble to others because they may have had this only chance to join the elite FAANG crowd and now they pay for it because of people with your line of thinking.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#72

Post by systematical » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

rStar wrote: post #11

when I went to university in 1999 it was my dream to work at a company like microsoft, then google. then i realized that big tech is just a way for those in control of society to control us more efficiently. i feel for those who just want to put their head down and do the work. nobody thought they were going to CS school to enable the exploitation of less lucky others. but now we have facebook, amazon, palantir, goog…

I was just following orders.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#73

Post by triceratops » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

jentist_retol wrote: post #46

Diederich wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of honest questions coming in. I would very much like to engage in a good faith conversation with you. > ... unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I'm going to replace 'company' with 'organization'. Do you harbor similar opinions about people who have previously or currently work for a federal gover…

I work in the security org now, and so I deal with a lot of exmilitary and exfederal employees. Considering that the military is a institution in this country that helps a lot of working class kids get education and training... It really comes down to choices and consent for me. If you're in the military, that may have been the option for an 18 year old and certainly I wasn't thinking about ethics when I was 18. But…

> i got downvoted. I'd like to know what I can improve on,

I didn't downvote you but I suspect it's because you compared working in the military favorably to working for FB.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#74

Post by elliekelly » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 10:04 PM UTC

jentist_retol wrote: post #46

Diederich wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of honest questions coming in. I would very much like to engage in a good faith conversation with you. > ... unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I'm going to replace 'company' with 'organization'. Do you harbor similar opinions about people who have previously or currently work for a federal gover…

I work in the security org now, and so I deal with a lot of exmilitary and exfederal employees. Considering that the military is a institution in this country that helps a lot of working class kids get education and training... It really comes down to choices and consent for me. If you're in the military, that may have been the option for an 18 year old and certainly I wasn't thinking about ethics when I was 18. But…

I definitely think there's a bit of "sliding scale of accountability" that makes sense. I won't begrudge someone who worked for Amazon in the warehouse because it paid slightly better than Walmart or Home Depot down the road. But the higher up you are in an organization the more control you (presumably) have and so, in my mind, the more "culpable" you are for that organization's actions. That can still be difficult to suss out though, especially in an interview. A lot of hiring managers won't like to hear you "bad mouth" your former employer so even when people do feel their prior employer wasn't quite ethical I doubt they'd come out and say it. It's much more likely they'd dance around it if they address it at all.

I also think even highly ethical people tend to be overly optimistic about how much change they can bring about within an organization. Changing the ethics of a massive organization isn't nearly as easy as overhauling operations or implementing a new tech stack - and neither of those things are easy either!

Tim Bray comes to mind. I have no doubt that quitting was the very last arrow in his quiver to bring meaningful change at the company. He's a very intelligent guy, highly respected in his field, and has an entire career to prove he's a capable and creative problem solver. Imagine all of the other things he tried to do before he quit? And he made a noisy exit but I'm sure there are others who haven't and felt the same way. Even at facebook, too.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#75

Post by uniqueid » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 10:04 PM UTC

rStar wrote: post #11

when I went to university in 1999 it was my dream to work at a company like microsoft, then google. then i realized that big tech is just a way for those in control of society to control us more efficiently. i feel for those who just want to put their head down and do the work. nobody thought they were going to CS school to enable the exploitation of less lucky others. but now we have facebook, amazon, palantir, goog…

    > nobody thought they were going to CS school 
    > to enable the exploitation of less lucky others.

When you were in university, the students who did think so were the ones who wanted to work on Wall St. A decade later, they all wanted to be the next Steve Jobs.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#76

Post by secondcoming » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 10:04 PM UTC

jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

And if I got your dumb question in an interview I'd walk out. It's obviously a politicised, hostile workplace.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#77

Post by pessimizer » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 10:04 PM UTC

bzb5 wrote: post #55

errantspark wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice to see some personal responsibility! :) I feel like one really needs to take a deontological view on things like this. Much like voting, every person who quits their job, refuses to hire an applicant or build a feature on ethical grounds moves society a step in the right direction. Don't forget about your personal agency, if you work in SV you probably have TONS AND TONS of it.

You may be confusing “right direction” with “my direction”.

There was no detectable point of view in the comment you're replying to, other than that what a person does should be compatible with their own belief system. It's hard to see that as oppression.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#78

Post by dazilcher » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 10:04 PM UTC

jentist_retol wrote: post #30

rajup wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested to know too so I can avoid it like the plague.

We handle large amounts of sensitive personal information, and developers are tightly integrated into the product development process. We have successfully lobbied against products with serious spousal abuse cases. If you can't handle a 5-10 minute question section in which I bring up contemporary criticism about your current employer, in the context of that sensitive information that we handle, then the feeling is m…

Filtering for opinionated developers who proritize their political views and arbitrary moral compass over company policies sure sounds like an interesting strategy when it comes to handling sensitive PII.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#79

Post by bitxbit » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 10:06 PM UTC

rStar wrote: post #11

when I went to university in 1999 it was my dream to work at a company like microsoft, then google. then i realized that big tech is just a way for those in control of society to control us more efficiently. i feel for those who just want to put their head down and do the work. nobody thought they were going to CS school to enable the exploitation of less lucky others. but now we have facebook, amazon, palantir, goog…

To be fair, how many people can say otherwise? That you’re working for something more than money? Creatives? And people with “fk you” money? It’s ridiculously hard to go against the establishments and most people fail doing so.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#80

Post by triceratops » Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 10:06 PM UTC

shmel wrote: post #58

jentist_retol wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in the security org now, and so I deal with a lot of exmilitary and exfederal employees. Considering that the military is a institution in this country that helps a lot of working class kids get education and training... It really comes down to choices and consent for me. If you're in the military, that may have been the option for an 18 year old and certainly I wasn't thinking about ethics when I was 18. But…

While you have a point about 18yo, it is very difficult to overlook the main job of the military: kill people. NSA flies below the radar or at least used to, but it is very difficult to not notice that the US military mostly come to foreign countries and kill people there. Even if you are a teenager. However, with FB it is less obvious due to their fancy talk about community and shit. I understand your outrage about…

> it is very difficult to overlook the main job of the military: kill people.

Not really. Its stated job is to keep other people from killing you.

It's unfortunate and unjust that in many cases this devolves into pre-emptive killing. But for most sovereign nations, there's really no alternative to having a military.