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Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

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Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#51

Post by alexbanks »

jentist_retol wrote: post #49
alexbanks wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a company with an above-average amount of moral character amongst its development staff.

I hope so. I wish I could give more information but maybe it's best to keep names out considering the context ;)

I mean, without knowing anything about you or your company other than what you posted above, it's hard to say. But in my experience the industry could use more morality based hiring standards, as well as morality-based repercussions for bad behavior. Kudos to you.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#52

Post by jentist_retol »

thinkmassive wrote: post #48
jentist_retol wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We handle large amounts of sensitive personal information, and developers are tightly integrated into the product development process. We have successfully lobbied against products with serious spousal abuse cases. If you can't handle a 5-10 minute question section in which I bring up contemporary criticism about your current employer, in the context of that sensitive information that we handle, then the feeling is m…

The people reacting like you have an awful take must have forgotten what story they’re commenting on. Personally I may not spend 5+ minutes on it, but the question will be raised, and only a well considered answer is getting the thumbs up.

I'm not looking for an apology, or remorse, or a sudden revelation. But an understanding of the work they do and WHY it might receive that perception is a "passing" answer, IMO.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#53

Post by errantspark »

Diederich wrote: post #32
jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

A couple of honest questions coming in. I would very much like to engage in a good faith conversation with you. > ... unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I'm going to replace 'company' with 'organization'. Do you harbor similar opinions about people who have previously or currently work for a federal gover…

Not OP, and I'm not sure I advocate for drawing such hard lines, but I hold a similar enough view that perhaps this will be of interest to you.

I do harbor similar opinions about people who have previously or currently worked for the government, or any organization that behaves in a way inconsistent with my ethical framework. I strive to see things as close to the shade of gray that they really are and act accordingly.

I more or less believe in free will and thus the responsibility for one's actions is one's own. The world is complicated and actions must be viewed in context. My opinion of someone who works for Google as a lead on their ad-tech will be worse than someone who works for Google X or someone who's on their first job out of college. My opinion will improve drastically if they leave Google on ethical grounds, or show remorse for their time there as an ex-Googler.

I think that on the surface level there are things big tech does are positive for society but the second and third order effects are frightening and negative in ways that are hard to bound. There's no way I can see to disentangle that from your personal responsibility for your actions that serve to advance their aims.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#54

Post by tehjoker »

rStar wrote: post #11

when I went to university in 1999 it was my dream to work at a company like microsoft, then google. then i realized that big tech is just a way for those in control of society to control us more efficiently. i feel for those who just want to put their head down and do the work. nobody thought they were going to CS school to enable the exploitation of less lucky others. but now we have facebook, amazon, palantir, goog…

One option is to work for academia on pure research, but you have to avoid defense applications which is tricky. :-( It's not for everyone though.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#55

Post by bzb5 »

errantspark wrote: post #38
jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

Nice to see some personal responsibility! :) I feel like one really needs to take a deontological view on things like this. Much like voting, every person who quits their job, refuses to hire an applicant or build a feature on ethical grounds moves society a step in the right direction. Don't forget about your personal agency, if you work in SV you probably have TONS AND TONS of it.

You may be confusing “right direction” with “my direction”.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#56

Post by iliekcomputers »

ksenzee wrote: post #40
jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

This is absolutely fair. When I ask people coming from Amazon why they left, I am very carefully listening to whether they like how Amazon treats its people or not. If I were interviewing an ex-Facebook employee, I'd want to hear some discomfort with Facebook's ethics.

Not sure if it's reasonable to expect people to badmouth their current employer in an interview, especially when you don't know the result of the interview.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#57

Post by Answerawake »

rStar wrote: post #11

when I went to university in 1999 it was my dream to work at a company like microsoft, then google. then i realized that big tech is just a way for those in control of society to control us more efficiently. i feel for those who just want to put their head down and do the work. nobody thought they were going to CS school to enable the exploitation of less lucky others. but now we have facebook, amazon, palantir, goog…

>as a tech person, that makes me extremely uncomfortable, and someone who hasn’t figured out even a personal route around the problem, much less a societal one. god bless us all.

Work for a boring company that provides a core service and does not ruffle feathers or cause trouble to society. I write Angular/Python apps for a company that sells payroll products. Its not the sexiest job in the world but the company needs tech people, it operates pretty ethically, I am paid reasonably well, and the team does not cause unnecessary stress day to day.

Government tech jobs are probably similar depending on department. You probably won't be contributing to the downfall of society in many govt branches but instead providing a reasonable service to society. The pay is probably less though.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#58

Post by shmel »

jentist_retol wrote: post #46
Diederich wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of honest questions coming in. I would very much like to engage in a good faith conversation with you. > ... unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I'm going to replace 'company' with 'organization'. Do you harbor similar opinions about people who have previously or currently work for a federal gover…

I work in the security org now, and so I deal with a lot of exmilitary and exfederal employees. Considering that the military is a institution in this country that helps a lot of working class kids get education and training... It really comes down to choices and consent for me. If you're in the military, that may have been the option for an 18 year old and certainly I wasn't thinking about ethics when I was 18. But…

While you have a point about 18yo, it is very difficult to overlook the main job of the military: kill people. NSA flies below the radar or at least used to, but it is very difficult to not notice that the US military mostly come to foreign countries and kill people there. Even if you are a teenager.

However, with FB it is less obvious due to their fancy talk about community and shit. I understand your outrage about facebook, but I don't understand you can give a pass to people who essentially say: "I gonna kill people, it is okay, they are probably bad people anyway".

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#59

Post by pb7 »

alexbanks wrote: post #21
just-juan-post wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which company do you work for again?

Probably a company with an above-average amount of moral character amongst its development staff.

There is little reason to believe that. It could just as likely be sour grapes.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#60

Post by pessimizer »

rStar wrote: post #11

when I went to university in 1999 it was my dream to work at a company like microsoft, then google. then i realized that big tech is just a way for those in control of society to control us more efficiently. i feel for those who just want to put their head down and do the work. nobody thought they were going to CS school to enable the exploitation of less lucky others. but now we have facebook, amazon, palantir, goog…

Those are the fairly novel ways of exploitation. Finance, marketing, naked rent-seeking, and employment through temp/piecework have always been around, but technology has made them terrifying. And every single field involves mass surveillance.

I got into programming because I loved the machines and the abstractions, but I'm finding myself helpless because I can't make myself contribute to the goals of the people who want to employ me.

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