Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 134 posts

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#41

Post by jeffbee »

pathseeker wrote: post #25
rStar wrote: post #11

when I went to university in 1999 it was my dream to work at a company like microsoft, then google. then i realized that big tech is just a way for those in control of society to control us more efficiently. i feel for those who just want to put their head down and do the work. nobody thought they were going to CS school to enable the exploitation of less lucky others. but now we have facebook, amazon, palantir, goog…

Isn't this looking at the past with rose colored glasses though? Time before using computers for business was terrible with much less transparency (no Googling prices, etc). Paperwork got lost all of the time. Companies could easily bury things, etc.

Newspapers charged $1 per word for classified ads.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#42

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

batmaniam wrote: post #31
jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

This is an extremely unfair evaluation of software engineers. There's no such thing as a company doing ethical work, they all answer to shareholders and generate profit solely to benefit that class of people. Everyone else is the working class, trying to get by and without any ability to actually change the incentive structure of a company. We all work for someone who is screwing someone else, be it the consumer or y…

(1) There are privately held companies who are not answerable to shareholders (certainly not a large group of them), and who may not even operate with profit as their primary goal.

(2) There are more nuanced definitions of "working class" which might be useful in this context. As much as I applaud class solidarity, there are ways in which software engineers currently are not subject to the same issues as other people who sell their labor to capital in order to make a living.

(3) Empowering the working class has not been a particularly successful strategy when done at scale, from a historical perspective. It seems more effective to focus on empowering people you know, the place you live, organizations that have something to do with you. "The working class" is, at this point in US history, far too amorphous and ill-defined a group, riven by division sown by capital in its own interest, to really be the focus of much empowerment.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#44

Post by crumbshot »

input_sh wrote: post #29
rStar wrote: post #11

when I went to university in 1999 it was my dream to work at a company like microsoft, then google. then i realized that big tech is just a way for those in control of society to control us more efficiently. i feel for those who just want to put their head down and do the work. nobody thought they were going to CS school to enable the exploitation of less lucky others. but now we have facebook, amazon, palantir, goog…

I'm still pretty young in my career, but I feel like I've figured out my own route around the problem. 3/4 organisations I've worked for have been NGOs, and I felt like I was doing meaningful work in all of them. The one that wasn't an NGO has been by far the worst one. Worse salary, worse perks, worse problems I've solved, and while I didn't do any work I considered to be unethical, I'd definitely refuse some of the…

That is interesting, what sort of NGOs did you find to have the most socially meaningful and ethical work available?

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#45

Post by coolspot »

diegoholiveira wrote: post #33

What would happen to Facebook if we do ban advertising from the internet?

Advertising itself is not inheritly bad: healthy socium needs product and price discovery.

Even targeted advertising, if done right is very good for both buyer and seller.

Bad part is data collection and predatory targeting, like for (rather mild) example “easy money passive FBA business” targeting aspiring enterpreners.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#46

Post by jentist_retol »

Diederich wrote: post #32
jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

A couple of honest questions coming in. I would very much like to engage in a good faith conversation with you. > ... unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I'm going to replace 'company' with 'organization'. Do you harbor similar opinions about people who have previously or currently work for a federal gover…

I work in the security org now, and so I deal with a lot of exmilitary and exfederal employees. Considering that the military is a institution in this country that helps a lot of working class kids get education and training...

It really comes down to choices and consent for me. If you're in the military, that may have been the option for an 18 year old and certainly I wasn't thinking about ethics when I was 18. But if you're able to work at an organization with a high bar such as Facebook, surely you have other options - unless you're a new grad - the stark reality is that when you get out of college, you take what you get.

I would definitely be a little tougher on someone who joined Facebook (or the NSA) in the last few years and already had job experience (senior/staff level) versus a Jr engineer or someone who'd been there since before a lot of these issues came to light (although that raises the question: why are yo u still there?)

And, my opinion on Facebook has changed drastically in the past few years.

So anyways, it's really contextual and empathetic. I'm not just trying to "GOTCHA" some guy who joined the military out of high school before fully appreciating the ramifications of their actions (I wouldn't have!).

But if you have 10 years of experience in software and you go work for the NSA... well, I have some questions.

I know there's a lot of gaps, and I'm ashamed to admit I don't really have a strong framework - this is a personal failing, and something I've really been thinking about more recently.

edit: i got downvoted. I'd like to know what I can improve on, please reply, thanks. I'm trying to be better!

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#47

Post by rococode »

pathseeker wrote: post #25
rStar wrote: post #11

when I went to university in 1999 it was my dream to work at a company like microsoft, then google. then i realized that big tech is just a way for those in control of society to control us more efficiently. i feel for those who just want to put their head down and do the work. nobody thought they were going to CS school to enable the exploitation of less lucky others. but now we have facebook, amazon, palantir, goog…

Isn't this looking at the past with rose colored glasses though? Time before using computers for business was terrible with much less transparency (no Googling prices, etc). Paperwork got lost all of the time. Companies could easily bury things, etc.

Agreed, imo transparency, accountability, and general corporate "goodness" are probably at all-time highs. The thing is the public's level of awareness of the remaining shadiness is also at an all-time high, so it can feel like things have gotten worse because we see more of it, even if the amount of things that go unnoticed has gone down.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#48

Post by thinkmassive »

jentist_retol wrote: post #30
rajup wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested to know too so I can avoid it like the plague.

We handle large amounts of sensitive personal information, and developers are tightly integrated into the product development process. We have successfully lobbied against products with serious spousal abuse cases. If you can't handle a 5-10 minute question section in which I bring up contemporary criticism about your current employer, in the context of that sensitive information that we handle, then the feeling is m…

The people reacting like you have an awful take must have forgotten what story they’re commenting on. Personally I may not spend 5+ minutes on it, but the question will be raised, and only a well considered answer is getting the thumbs up.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#49

Post by jentist_retol »

alexbanks wrote: post #21
just-juan-post wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which company do you work for again?

Probably a company with an above-average amount of moral character amongst its development staff.

I hope so.

I wish I could give more information but maybe it's best to keep names out considering the context ;)

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#50

Post by IvyMike »

li4ick wrote: post #19
jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

I mean, I believe that there should be a Hippocratic Oath in software, but I'm not sure where your particular cutoff bar stands. My view of software is against the mainstream: most programmers should dedicate their time to build tools for scientists, to solve actual problems and advance our species. Current tech is mostly trash, useless and nobody needs it.

There is the ACM Code of Ethics, which includes:

> Contribute to society and to human well-being, acknowledging that all people are stakeholders in computing.

> Avoid harm.

The document is a lot bigger than the Hippocratic Oath, so includes a lot of points about Professional Responsibilities and Leadership, but at least it's partially aligned with that kind of thinking.

https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics

Post reply on HN