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Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

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Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#151

Post by djmips »

MereInterest wrote: post #140
anigbrowl wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are we always blaming the public for being easily deceived and not the people who invest large sums of financial and political capital in the deception?

Partly, because the deception worked. Partly, because tech crowds lean libertarian, and interpreting all issues as individual issues requiring individual solutions is a very libertarian response.

I'd guess that a majority of the tech crowd wasn't fooled. This isn't exactly news if you follow tech related stories. So I think there is a tendency to blame the non tech people for not also being aware of something that was 'obvious'.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#152

Post by lucumo »

dgellow wrote: post #99

I have difficulties to understand if that's US specific or also a problem in Europe and the rest of the world. For example, I'm reading this article from 2011 that mentions that 77% of Japan's plastic is recycled: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/dec/29/japan-le... Is that complete bullshit too, or is something possible to actually achieve, just not in the US?

This probably depends on the country, and perhaps even municipality, but plastic is recycled properly here (.nl).

Plastic, drinking cartons and metals are collected in the same container. These three are separated using magnets[1] and infrared scanners. The plastics are melted down to little pellets that can be used to create new products. A common example are shampoo bottles. This video is in Dutch, but it has some overview of these sorting machines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf--8o3yD6g

Based on this video about plastic recycling in Germany, I think the situation is very similar there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_fUpP-hq3A The video is in English. The plastics that are recycled there seem to be PET, PP and HDPE.

I'm absolutely in love with all the neat little tricks these machines use to sort the stuff. From simple ones like sieves and centrifuges, to fans and advanced imaging stuff. It's beautiful.

[1] Even aluminium can be sorted with magnets by doing some magic.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#153

Post by hosh »

neltnerb wrote: post #64
blululu wrote: post #10

It is always a little surprising how naive people are when it comes to recycling. The majority of the cost and difficulty comes in sorting. Back in the good old days most US municipalities used to require people to sort their recycling by type, but over the years we have switched to a more wasteful system. For aluminum cans the material is valuable and relatively easy to sort. For plastic the material is cheap and so…

No, plastic degrades each time it is recycled. They knew that, every materials scientist knew that, and it is just not possible to fully reclaim recycled plastic. What really pisses me off is the use of the recycling number as marketing. Which is still ongoing and being modernized. Leave a complaint card any time you see compostable plastic being used in a city that doesn't have specialized industrial composting plan…

> In almost all locations, PLA, "compostable plastic" (often labeled number 7 or 0 for marketing) is not only not recyclable but actively contaminates compost and recycling plants. I see all these places using "compostable plastic" because they think it's more environmentally friendly.

I don't know the answer to this question -- have you heard of any work using fungi or "eco-vats" to break down plastics like this?

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#154

Post by einpoklum »

> Rogue, like most recycling companies, had been sending plastic trash to China, but when China shut its doors two years ago, Leebrick scoured the U.S. for buyers.

So isn't a part of the article only relevant to the US, and other countries which were exporting plastic trash rather than actually recycling/using for derivative products?

> Here's the basic problem: All used plastic can be turned into new things, but picking it up, sorting it out and melting it down is expensive.

> Recycling plastic is "costly,"

By now, we should be well enough educated to say: "What do you mean by expensive or costly?"

Does it mean...

* Costs a lot of money in the current socio-economic order?

* Requires a lot of human effort?

* Requires a lot of electricity / other form of energy?

* Has a high carbon footprint (by some complex figuring)?

* Involves a process emitting pollutants?

If it's just the monetary cost, then in a sense - that doesn't matter. Just rearrange society so that either this is funded (or a non-monetary economy). If it's energy use - maybe it's worth it and it could be arranged to be done using solar collectors in the desert or whatever. And so on.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#155

Post by aaron695 »

pessimizer wrote: post #136
aaron695 wrote: post #89

I'm sick of stupid people. This was never a secret. If you were dumb enough to think recycling works for anything other than aluminium you are the problem. Penn and Tell even did a Bullshit, for pre internet times. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0771119/ ( although it was a awful episode )

Yeah, people have all the time in the world to independently research recycling technologies. I'm pretty sure you yourself don't have that time, you rely on cynicism and a few experts you trust. How are they all supposed to know your experts, and why should they trust them more than the vast majority of public experts on the payroll of polluters? People have to work and raise their children. They can't be expected to…

Then don't support it. Be neutral.

If you have the time for a simple rule, people will pay for things of value.

That's a good rule of life. You can expand it as you get time.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#156

Post by hosh »

regularfry wrote: post #112
neltnerb wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, plastic degrades each time it is recycled. They knew that, every materials scientist knew that, and it is just not possible to fully reclaim recycled plastic. What really pisses me off is the use of the recycling number as marketing. Which is still ongoing and being modernized. Leave a complaint card any time you see compostable plastic being used in a city that doesn't have specialized industrial composting plan…

It depends if fully reclaiming it as plastic is the goal. That's the current model, but there are other routes available. Two options that don't quite work yet (but have moderately promising potential) are either to break the plastic down to useful precursors with enzymes, or pyrolise it down to biochar. To my knowledge, the enzyme approach has shown a modicum of promise in labs but is still impractical, while making…

Huh, I've always considered organics as biochar inputs. Thanks for pointing out that plastics can be used that way. Have you seen any work done about addressing release of toxins when burning plastic?

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#157

Post by lopmotr »

chrischen wrote: post #13
nend wrote: post #4

Reduce, reuse, recycle - meaning recycling is the last option. It's better to not consume plastic in the first place, but if you must, find additional uses for it. It takes more of a lifestyle change though than to simply put your cans in a different barrel. Which is probably why few people are willing to try it.

I feel Americans tend to over-consume and undervalue reuse. I always get made fun of for selling my used things on ebay and also buying used instead of new.

I've heard that sentiment many decades ago too. I suspect it's because things cost the same price everywhere due to international trade but labor for repairing is cheaper in most other countries because they have lower incomes than America. So it may just be a rational economic decision, not the wrong amount of consumption and reuse.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#158

Post by lopmotr »

aspaceman wrote: post #67
nend wrote: post #4

Reduce, reuse, recycle - meaning recycling is the last option. It's better to not consume plastic in the first place, but if you must, find additional uses for it. It takes more of a lifestyle change though than to simply put your cans in a different barrel. Which is probably why few people are willing to try it.

Or maybe we should stop companies from making genuine truck loads of the garbage? They make it cause it’s cheap, and they don’t give a flying fuck about the world.

And you buy it because it's cheap.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#159

Post by wool_gather »

neltnerb wrote: post #64
blululu wrote: post #10

It is always a little surprising how naive people are when it comes to recycling. The majority of the cost and difficulty comes in sorting. Back in the good old days most US municipalities used to require people to sort their recycling by type, but over the years we have switched to a more wasteful system. For aluminum cans the material is valuable and relatively easy to sort. For plastic the material is cheap and so…

No, plastic degrades each time it is recycled. They knew that, every materials scientist knew that, and it is just not possible to fully reclaim recycled plastic. What really pisses me off is the use of the recycling number as marketing. Which is still ongoing and being modernized. Leave a complaint card any time you see compostable plastic being used in a city that doesn't have specialized industrial composting plan…

> Leave a complaint card any time you see compostable plastic being used in a city that doesn't have specialized industrial composting plants,

A store's refuse is not necessarily going through the municipal waste process. Stores have contracts with speicfic waste management companies, who may have their own facilities.

(Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean the private company can handle the plastic either -- I know of a store that had to start telling their employees and customers to put the "compostable" plastic in the regular garbage because it was causing problems for the composter.)

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#160

Post by DenisM »

XCSme wrote: post #134
treyp wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't sequestering carbon a good thing?

I think that's what he tried to say, if you recycle paper the carbon gets somehow released. But, in theory, the recycled paper will still come out as paper, thus carbon will still be there.

> in theory, the recycled paper will still come out as paper, thus carbon will still be there.

If paper never gets recycled it will continue accumulating in the landfill at a fast pace, so more carbon gets trapped over time.

If paper gets recycled the amount of captured carbon will be that trapped in the paper currently circulating. Even if some paper gets eventually trashed, it will not be at the same rate.

Recycling paper harms climate.

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