Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#431

Post by NovemberWhiskey » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 11:40 AM UTC

summerlight wrote: post #214

anm89 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While in principle I agree with you, if Epic signed an agreement that they owed Apple a percent based on initial terms, then that is out the window.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability It's called an unconscionable contract. Epic's argument is that you cannot enforce unfair things even if you signed on it. Of course, the court is going to decide if it's really unfair, neither Epic nor Apple.

Unconscionable is not the same as "unfair" in the commonly understood sense.

I would be interested to see a solid case decided on unconscionability where both parties are multi-billion dollar companies with substantial resources to spend on negotiating contracts.

If "I really want what you're selling, but it's kinda expensive" is the new standard for unconscionability, then we're all in big trouble.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#432

Post by tomxor » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 11:41 AM UTC

jbverschoor wrote: post #358

canofbars wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you don't like the App Store, don't use an iPhone This is not the main issue, its on the other end. If you are a developer, and you don't like the App Store, you have no options. You can't publish on an alt store because those are not allowed. So your only option is to not provide services to 50% of your customers and thats assuming the google play store doesn't have the same issue you are avoiding. A real world…

Same for Nintendo, PS, Xbox, Android. And the other 'appstores' - steam, epic, etc Quite frankly, the lockdown of the OS and rejection of this is one of the primary reasons I'm on iPhone.

> Quite frankly, the lockdown of the OS and rejection of this is one of the primary reasons I'm on iPhone.

_You_ are neither the vendor OR the citizen in the parent comment's metaphor, trying to build or be part of a civilization in the middle of the ocean.

Please do not try to justify a restriction because you happen to personally be happy with the current offering, the world is larger than you. There being more freedoms for others will not stop you from restricting yourself.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#433

Post by pjmlp » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 11:44 AM UTC

8note wrote: post #423

pjmlp wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If is such a killer app, Epic is free to create their own phone OS, it would sell like hot pancakes. You know, actual innovation.

I'm not clear why app store competition should be determined by phone features? The choice between fortnight and a good camera seems like a strange one. Why couldn't Netscape have just made their own computer, instead of relying on windows boxes?

Because app store should be an integral part of the OS, don't like it? Get another brand.

Nothing prevented them to do so, in fact that is what ChromeOS and FirefoxOS are all about.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#434

Post by sem000 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 11:45 AM UTC

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #396

dr_dshiv wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also have the choice to avoid smartphones altogether. What they want, though, is the ability to use apple hardware and non-apple software. The only reason they can't is because Apple won't let them, unless they pay a 30% commission

When I bought my iPhone I knew that I could only use the AppStore. I actually bought the iPhone because of the AppStore, the strict rules Apple has for developers and I prefer that no side-loading can occur. If you or any consumer feels lied to, misled or falsely advertised to, they should return their device to Apple. If enough people choose non-Apple products then Apple might change its position. Until then, buy a…

Exactly! HN is a small subset of Apple customers. The largest piece of the pie don’t care about any of this stuff besides that it works.

I specifically bought Apple vs Android for these reasons. I run my life and business form my phone, I trust Apple to provide me with a working experience and support when needed.

Imagine having to use another App Store outside Apples control, and an app causes my phone to crash. Who will support me? I have to go digging to the app developer, or the App Store developer, or Apple?

Apple went this route to specifically remove the fragmentation of the PC market, and what you see similar in the Android market. The closed system provides better quality. That is why Apple is where it is today.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#435

Post by pjmlp » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 11:46 AM UTC

8note wrote: post #425

pjmlp wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace iPhone with Wii, Switch, Vita, PSP, PS4, XBox, XBox 360....

There's plenty of competition in terms of stores for all those things, except iPhones. For instance, you can buy games for your switch from amazon or best buy. They have no such restriction where you can only buy games through Nintendo's store

Not really, Switch game cards are produced by Nintendo, it is still just one store.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#436

Post by glenstein » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 11:54 AM UTC

cf_ wrote: post #203

I really wish there was a third party - the customer - actually represented in this trial. Apple and Epic arguing over what is best for the customer, while clearly they are having their own interests in mind, screams for the actual customers to be represented. The whole argument about them promoting an app „for free“ is a bit ridiculous. They clearly knew the amount of commission they were going to earn from pushing…

>I think if the App Store is such a tremendous value, why don‘t you ask users to pay for access to that App Store directly. Let‘s see how valuable everybody thinks the App Store is when they actually have to pay an access fee directly to Apple.

Right. If the problem is that people are insufficiently appreciative of having access 'for free' and should therefore leave complaints unstated and unaddressed, Apple can fix that by imposing a fee, so they can no longer use "for free" as something to hold against app-store users to short-circuit complaints.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#437

Post by simion314 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 11:56 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #430

dr_dshiv wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple owns the marketplace on their platform. When they undermine competing payment systems using their monopoly power then they appear to be acting anticompetitively in a manner that is against the consumers best interest. This is only an issue when they use their monopoly power to undermine consumer interests.

Consumers get their apps, there is no undermining taking place. Maybe I should complain that Sony abuses the PS4 market so I can't run Switch titles on the PS4.

Exactly, except for Fortnite (very popular ) and other apps tha tApple don't like(Hey,Wordpress) or apps that US does not like ,and the apps that indie developers can't afford to publish(small games that have Win,Mac,Linux and Android version) , and maybe GPL(maybe it changed) apps, but except all those apps consumers can get all the apps they want.

But can you write me a logical phrase about what should happen if a judge declares that Apple can continue locking the phones because there is a duopoly and the next day Google does the exact same thing since now is 100% legal.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#438

Post by pjmlp » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 11:59 AM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #374

jbverschoor wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same for Nintendo, PS, Xbox, Android. And the other 'appstores' - steam, epic, etc Quite frankly, the lockdown of the OS and rejection of this is one of the primary reasons I'm on iPhone.

So you're happy as a consumer that developer's freedom is taken away from them, but you have more freedom. That's understandable, but you should realize that some developers value their freedom and will just avoid such a locked-down platform. There are plenty of apps missing in iPhone because of that.

Developers are free to target other platforms, some of them are doing PlayStation exclusives.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#439

Post by wilsonnb3 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 12:09 PM UTC

bww wrote: post #120

This is a very bad look on Apple. Regardless of the enforceability of their agreements, the sense of entitlement that underlies Apple’s position is shocking. The claim that Epic has “lined [its] pockets at Apple’s expense” implies that Apple deserves to sit in the middle of every transaction that happens on their devices and take a margin. This is the world’s most valuable company we’re talking about here; assertions…

You can buy your Mac, iPhones, and ipads used and give no money to apple for any of those purchases.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#440

Post by dr_dshiv » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 12:10 PM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #348

pjmlp wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have the choice to buy other brands.

They also have the choice to avoid smartphones altogether. What they want, though, is the ability to use apple hardware and non-apple software. The only reason they can't is because Apple won't let them, unless they pay a 30% commission

Why is this any different from Apple saying that you can't download other software on your Macbook, unless you pay Apple 30% and buy it from their store?