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Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

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Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#321

Post by swiley »

m3kw9 wrote: post #81

Couldn’t have said it better myself: “Epic’s lawsuit is nothing more than a basic disagreement over money,” Apple said in its filing Tuesday. “Although Epic portrays itself as a modern corporate Robin Hood, in reality it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise that simply wants to pay nothing for the tremendous value it derives from the App Store.”

I said a few weeks ago this is exactly the way apple would want the conversation to go. That apple is asking for 30% is uninteresting (even reasonable!) That they’ve sold the world a PC many people can’t leave which they can control (to the point of deleting apps and data!) is what’s absolutely insane about the situation.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#322

Post by realusername »

gigatexal wrote: post #317
realusername wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole appeal of the phone is the secure cohesive experience not the hodge-podge setup of the PC for example I doubt non-tech people even know about the walled-garden or the anti-competitive practices of both companies, they just buy their device based on features, screen and camera and that's it. Just have a look at a mainstream phone review video on YouTube, only those points will be detailed. To consumers it'…

I’m no iOS dev but I work in the tech field and am well into the ecosystem of Apple but also follow the company both in podcasts and online and am fully aware of the walled garden and it’s a feature for me it a bug. Also, I get the sense that people are trying to impose OSS-isms on Apple when they both have no power to and also Apple has no reason to abide.

But non-developers have no idea about that, let's be honest. Just open-up a mainstream Youtube video about the latest iphone and check whenever they talk about the app review process (hint: never).

> Also, I get the sense that people are trying to impose OSS-isms on Apple when they both have no power to and also Apple has no reason to abide.

That's why we need anti-trust investigations to both Google and Apple, having a good chunk of the modern economy relying on just two companies which don't even appear to have any competition pressure is just unacceptable.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#323

Post by canofbars »

DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #286
vbezhenar wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't like their launchers, don't use their apps, it's simple as that. They're free to create a software in a way they feel appropriate. You're free to use or not to use that software.

If you don't like the App Store, don't use an iPhone, it's simple as that. They're free to manage their platform in a way they feel appropriate. You're free to use or not use that platform. --- I'm not necessarily saying I think Apple is in the right, but your argument doesn't hold because it works equally well when applied at a higher level, which runs counter to your point.

>If you don't like the App Store, don't use an iPhone

This is not the main issue, its on the other end. If you are a developer, and you don't like the App Store, you have no options. You can't publish on an alt store because those are not allowed. So your only option is to not provide services to 50% of your customers and thats assuming the google play store doesn't have the same issue you are avoiding.

A real world example of this is vape companies provide an app which lets you do things like lock your vape so kids can't use it. Apple said those apps are not allowed on the app store. The vape company has no options, they just can't sell products to apple users now.

The problem is these tech companies hold way to much power. It would be like if 2 landlords owned literally every single block of land in the entire country. Now normally it would be fair for the landlord to pick which types of businesses to rent out to but when both options say your business isn't accepted and the only alternative is to build your own island in the ocean and create a civilisation on it so you can open your store then something is seriously wrong.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#324

Post by swiley »

bzb5 wrote: post #315
swiley wrote: post #302

No company has pushed me more strongly towards the ideologies RMS (who I still think is a bit crazy) writes about than Apple. At this point I’m convinced there needs to be a law against closed devices and closed software.

“I like my newfound ideology so much, I think it should be written into law”

His argument is that the law should prevent this kind of abuse. That’s the ideology itself.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#325

Post by gigatexal »

realusername wrote: post #322
gigatexal wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m no iOS dev but I work in the tech field and am well into the ecosystem of Apple but also follow the company both in podcasts and online and am fully aware of the walled garden and it’s a feature for me it a bug. Also, I get the sense that people are trying to impose OSS-isms on Apple when they both have no power to and also Apple has no reason to abide.

But non-developers have no idea about that, let's be honest. Just open-up a mainstream Youtube video about the latest iphone and check whenever they talk about the app review process (hint: never). > Also, I get the sense that people are trying to impose OSS-isms on Apple when they both have no power to and also Apple has no reason to abide. That's why we need anti-trust investigations to both Google and Apple, havin…

Sounds like tyranny to me. All of this imposition to force the market leaders to change instead of championing other champions. Nobody was giving mind to Apple when Rim and Nokia and Sony were the big players. Apple just made a better device that the market liked more. There will be a new better thing to come along it just needs to be invented.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#326

Post by pjmlp »

kbenson wrote: post #291
valuearb wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge difference between having your PC not work because of viruses and your phone. Since day one security and safety have been the most important feature for iPhone, and the biggest reason consumers select it.

> Since day one security and safety have been the most important feature for iPhone, and the biggest reason consumers select it. That's ridiculous. That has nothing to do with the reason people selected it when it came out. It was pretty, it had features no other phone really had, such as a browser that rendered the same as the desktop and good touch controls, but security and safety had nothing to do with it.

Nope, US should have embraced Symbian phones better earlier on.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#327

Post by pjmlp »

pier25 wrote: post #181
parasubvert wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is forced to use it: just stop developing for iOS. Same goes for any other platform like Google Play, Xbox, Nintendo, etc. Or selling concert tickets through Ticketmaster.

Technically yes, in reality you can't ignore iOS if you're in the mobile space. You think people would keep using say Evernote or Spotify if it didn't have an iOS app? Also, it's not only about the App Store. You can't simply tell the iOS users of your mobile web app to use an Android device.

They would, because there are countries where iOS has 0% market presence, and they also offer Web variants of those apps.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#328

Post by danbolt »

realusername wrote: post #300
gigatexal wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this argument everywhere and it makes no sense. The ToS is up to the owner of the platform. It's the same reason I don't use Facebook: I think the company and what they do with my data is diametrically opposed to my way of thinking so I voted to leave by deleting my account. Developer's do have a choice: abide by the ToS and enjoy the trappings of a user base that tends to spend more on applications be they sub…

> The ToS is up to the owner of the platform When there's only two companies fully controlling the next era of computing platforms, there's some argument that they have way too much power in their hand. > The game is like a car that drives on a road. The car is Epic's Fortnite. The road is a toll road. The road was built by Apple. Many cars can drive on this road but must pay a fee. (The analogy isn't 1:1 but work wi…

We better start launching apps for Pinephones and asking MNT Research to make a phone, then.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#329

Post by rimliu »

valuearb wrote: post #276
hnra wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought an iPhone despite the App Store, so I don't think that logic really holds.

You bought a phone whose major customer value is it’s walled garden, but you don’t want a walled garden? That doesn’t seem right.

It is like vaccination: "look, there is no smallpox or measles, why do we need a vaccination for?"

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#330

Post by pjmlp »

rektide wrote: post #60
loktarogar wrote: post #42

> it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise that simply wants to pay nothing for the tremendous value it derives from the App Store. Half true. EPIC doesn't really get any value from the App Store except data delivery, which they're more than willing to do themselves. Fortnite is popular enough that the app discovery part of the store is meaningless.

Apple on the other hand gets plenty of value from Epic. For example, 10 years ago, when Epic made the Citadel demo for Apple to show their smartphones could run games. Ground breaking R&D work, gratis for Apple, & legitimizing their devices. https://www.theverge.com/21405805/epic-citadel-2010-annivers... We'll see how much more bad blood Apple can make with developers before people start noticing & caring about the s…

The same citadel demo made for Flash C++ support.

Apple didn't need Epic support, the only other phone that actually had hardware support for GL ES 1.0 was Nokia N95.

And mobile games have been a thing since J2ME, Brew, Symbian, Windows CE/Pocket PC, with stores getting commissions all the way up to 80%.

Maybe Epic would rather develop games against the early 2000's store model from mobile operators.

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