Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#41

Post by kevingadd » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

Traster wrote: post #30

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

> It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, just charge them for development tools. This isn't how the software development eco-system works. There are tonnes of examples of providing free development tools with restrictions on use and revenue sharing agreements. For example, there's this little known company called Epic Games which provides the Unreal Engine for…

Well, if they were charging 30% maybe you could expect those services.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#42

Post by loktarogar » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

> it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise that simply wants to pay nothing for the tremendous value it derives from the App Store.

Half true. EPIC doesn't really get any value from the App Store except data delivery, which they're more than willing to do themselves. Fortnite is popular enough that the app discovery part of the store is meaningless.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#43

Post by AsyncAwait » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

Traster wrote: post #30

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

> It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, just charge them for development tools. This isn't how the software development eco-system works. There are tonnes of examples of providing free development tools with restrictions on use and revenue sharing agreements. For example, there's this little known company called Epic Games which provides the Unreal Engine for…

You pay Apple a developer fee. It's not free.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#44

Post by Traster » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

The thing that really annoys me about this entire argument is that the principal of the thing isn't really controversial. Apple provides a tonne of services (SDKs, marketplace, payment processing) that other people also provide and also charge for. It's not that controversial - in fact, Epic's Unreal Engine has the exact same revenue share terms as Apple. The only thing that's really controversial here is that 30% is quite a high share, and Apple has to pull out all the stops to protect that 30% becuase of how high a share that is.

I think it's a very hard push to claim Apple is a monopoly. It's just a damn good platform that's able to claim a disporportionate share of the revenue because it's so damn good. The whole moralistic histrionics from Hey, Epic, and Apple are total rubbish though.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#45

Post by wayneftw » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #26

I look forward to Epic's next set of suits against Sony and Microsoft, who offer basically identical terms for inclusion on the app platforms for Playstation and Xbox, respectively.

I look forward to hearing an argument about how game consoles are nearly as important to society or as ubiquitous, as smart phones.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#46

Post by rimliu » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

adsjhdashkj wrote: post #15

anm89 wrote: post #4

It's as if Apple is on a mission to destroy the credibility and respect they had.

I felt like every poor quality controlled release they've had on OSX for the last 10 years has been trying to do that. I feel lost. Wanting to have a simple OS that lets me develop with unix tools but also "just works". The expense i pay for Apple products no longer follows this, for me.

What stops you from using other OSes with much better quality control?

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#47

Post by gpm » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #19

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

"at Apple's expense" really surprised me in that statement, too. Certainly, Epic's move denied Apple money they would have earned, but "at their expense" makes it sound like Epic was going to bankrupt them.

I think from Apple's perspective here Epic's move did two things.

It denied both Apple and Epic revenue by decreasing sales.

It moved revenue from Apple to Epic by moving the commission on the sales that did happen from Apple to Epic. I believe this is what they're complaining about with the "lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense", i.e. they are arguing that they are entitled to that commission on the transactions that went through the 3rd party payment provider.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#48

Post by neau » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

rriepe wrote: post #17

adsjhdashkj wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt like every poor quality controlled release they've had on OSX for the last 10 years has been trying to do that. I feel lost. Wanting to have a simple OS that lets me develop with unix tools but also "just works". The expense i pay for Apple products no longer follows this, for me.

Solus has been this for me

Elementary OS for me.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#49

Post by quenix » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

adsjhdashkj wrote: post #15

anm89 wrote: post #4

It's as if Apple is on a mission to destroy the credibility and respect they had.

I felt like every poor quality controlled release they've had on OSX for the last 10 years has been trying to do that. I feel lost. Wanting to have a simple OS that lets me develop with unix tools but also "just works". The expense i pay for Apple products no longer follows this, for me.

Apart from Catalina, I’ve been satisfied with macOS release quality.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#50

Post by beaner » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

Traster wrote: post #30

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

> It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, just charge them for development tools. This isn't how the software development eco-system works. There are tonnes of examples of providing free development tools with restrictions on use and revenue sharing agreements. For example, there's this little known company called Epic Games which provides the Unreal Engine for…

They seem not quite the same to me. A game built with Unreal Engine is essentially powered by it and would not exist otherwise. A game deployed to an iPhone could theoretically be acquired through an alternative app store or just direct download. Apple's app store provides no utility to developers other than being the forced walled monopoly that all developers must list through.

The proper analogy to Epic charging for its game engine is Apple charging for its developer licenses - which it already does separately from the app store.