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Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

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Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#391

Post by tuatoru »

tobyhinloopen wrote: post #385
cf_ wrote: post #203

I really wish there was a third party - the customer - actually represented in this trial. Apple and Epic arguing over what is best for the customer, while clearly they are having their own interests in mind, screams for the actual customers to be represented. The whole argument about them promoting an app „for free“ is a bit ridiculous. They clearly knew the amount of commission they were going to earn from pushing…

Meanwhile the Apple AppStore is terrible for finding anything. It’s just a horrible list of most downloaded apps and a search bar, and even the search feature is bad. For every other purpose like getting proper recommendations, you have to consult the internet. Imagine having a “we think you will like these games because you played...” feature that works as well as Spotify’s or Steam’s recommendation engine. That wil…

Yes!

Good grief, Amazon is terrible for finding things, but the Apple App Store is several degrees worse. I do a search for an app that is in a top apps list, and it doesn't show up in the search results. WTF?

The whole App Store experience shows major contempt for your customers, Apple. That sound in the distance is chickens coming home to roost.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#392

Post by arvinsim »

bananabreakfast wrote: post #263
beaner wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They seem not quite the same to me. A game built with Unreal Engine is essentially powered by it and would not exist otherwise. A game deployed to an iPhone could theoretically be acquired through an alternative app store or just direct download. Apple's app store provides no utility to developers other than being the forced walled monopoly that all developers must list through. The proper analogy to Epic charging fo…

How is it a monopoly? Apple has a monopoly... on Apple products?

I want the definition for monopoly be reviewed by law making entities.

It was made from a bygone era, where the digital concept didn’t even exist.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#393

Post by harpratap »

pjmlp wrote: post #364
dr_dshiv wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also have the choice to avoid smartphones altogether. What they want, though, is the ability to use apple hardware and non-apple software. The only reason they can't is because Apple won't let them, unless they pay a 30% commission

One cannot buy a house besides a landing lane and then complain planes are taking off and landing all day long. If iOS doesn't offer what they want, don't buy Apple, plain and simple, there is nothing more to discuss and the judge will set this straight.

In developed countries there are laws preventing sale of properties where noise may be so high that it's detrimental to one's health. So if the competition in market is hurting the merchants or consumers, it should be rightfully outlawed.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#394

Post by realusername »

tasssko wrote: post #369
realusername wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ToS is up to the owner of the platform When there's only two companies fully controlling the next era of computing platforms, there's some argument that they have way too much power in their hand. > The game is like a car that drives on a road. The car is Epic's Fortnite. The road is a toll road. The road was built by Apple. Many cars can drive on this road but must pay a fee. (The analogy isn't 1:1 but work wi…

A better analogy is the game is like a ride at a theme park. The theme park was built by Apple. Many companies can make games/rides for the theme park but must pay a share of revenue from each customer going on rides. You can go on a ride at the theme park but you pay an entrance fee for the theme park and you pay to go on the rides.

That's the same issue with this analogy, unlike the theme park, the phone owner isn't Apple, there is no way around it.

Additionally, maybe we should have higher standards for technology which a good chunk of the world economy is relying on rather than applying some entertainment standards.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#395

Post by coldtea »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #348
pjmlp wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have the choice to buy other brands.

They also have the choice to avoid smartphones altogether. What they want, though, is the ability to use apple hardware and non-apple software. The only reason they can't is because Apple won't let them, unless they pay a 30% commission

The only reason the want to use the Apple hardware is because Apple makes it and comes with Apple software and Apple roadmaps.

If being more open magically offered the same quality all kind of third party open platforms would have flourished.

But even in the semi-closed Android you have 95% of mobile malware according to surveys, devices abandoned without updates after 1-2 releases, tons of crap trojan apps, widespread spyware, and so on...

A third party app store can be fine at first. "You can chose whether to use it or not" after all.

Then some major software only comes for that store, and now you don't have either a unified store, or a way not to use 2 stores (since you need the software).

Then each major vendor (Google, Adobe, Amazon, etc) make their own app stores on the platform. Because, why not?

Oh, and Facebook can demand you get their app from their store, where it comes with all kinds of private API abuse and surveillance (some of this might be solvable with stronger sandboxing, if it's not deemed "anti-competitive" itself).

Then there are all kinds of minor stores, luring your less tech savvy parents, siblings, etc, with BS offers, more malware, pirated versions of software, etc.

Oh, and there are "free" stores, you can just install, all kinds of shady stuff that ocassionally roots your iPhone with 0-days and is not revocable.

Suddenly app developers don't feel so good about this ability to have multiple stores. They mainly wanted lower Apple rates, but now they have to ship to different stores, track different vendor rules, and so on. And if they stick to a store or two, they're less discoverable. Now you have meta-services that ship your app to many stores and handle the hassle. But they can not do much for the free stores that give pirated copies of your app, or full title+branding+UI rip-offs of your app by small e.g. Chinese devs.

And if one of the big app stores gets popular, they now have control over the platform too. Apple wants to move forward with an API change? Not so fast, the big app store doesn't agree (similar to how Apple was beholden to the goodwill of Microsoft and Adobe back in the day).

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#396

Post by yazaddaruvala »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #348
pjmlp wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have the choice to buy other brands.

They also have the choice to avoid smartphones altogether. What they want, though, is the ability to use apple hardware and non-apple software. The only reason they can't is because Apple won't let them, unless they pay a 30% commission

When I bought my iPhone I knew that I could only use the AppStore. I actually bought the iPhone because of the AppStore, the strict rules Apple has for developers and I prefer that no side-loading can occur.

If you or any consumer feels lied to, misled or falsely advertised to, they should return their device to Apple.

If enough people choose non-Apple products then Apple might change its position. Until then, buy a different brand.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#397

Post by yazaddaruvala »

vbezhenar wrote: post #374
jbverschoor wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same for Nintendo, PS, Xbox, Android. And the other 'appstores' - steam, epic, etc Quite frankly, the lockdown of the OS and rejection of this is one of the primary reasons I'm on iPhone.

So you're happy as a consumer that developer's freedom is taken away from them, but you have more freedom. That's understandable, but you should realize that some developers value their freedom and will just avoid such a locked-down platform. There are plenty of apps missing in iPhone because of that.

Good! As an iPhone user, I’ll wait for the app to become popular enough that Apple correctly integrates it.

Case and point, Swipe keyboards. It was the biggest missing feature for three years when I moved from Android to iPhone. I still preferred my iPhone!

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#398

Post by jbverschoor »

vbezhenar wrote: post #374
jbverschoor wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same for Nintendo, PS, Xbox, Android. And the other 'appstores' - steam, epic, etc Quite frankly, the lockdown of the OS and rejection of this is one of the primary reasons I'm on iPhone.

So you're happy as a consumer that developer's freedom is taken away from them, but you have more freedom. That's understandable, but you should realize that some developers value their freedom and will just avoid such a locked-down platform. There are plenty of apps missing in iPhone because of that.

There’s no need to have access to things I don’t want them to.

There is no need for them to ask for my payment information in a way that can be fraudulent.

There are many reasons for them why they’d want to reduce subscription cancellation and other dark patterns.

There is no reason for them to be able to install anything, or run arbitrary code on my device.

If epic wants to do business with me, they can go through my secretary/lawyer/firewall (Apple).

I’m more than 10x likely to spend money on apps, so I think that more than evens it out.

Which apps are missing? I’m so t see any added value in another AppStore. Heck, I’d love for Apple to lockdown OS X so that adobe’s store/updater is banned. Wishful thinking

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#399

Post by lawtalkinghuman »

canofbars wrote: post #337
danbolt wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We better start launching apps for Pinephones and asking MNT Research to make a phone, then.

The simple solution to this is a law requiring that all general purpose computing devices (Lets define this as something that the user can install and run programs on) must provide a feature to run unauthenticated 3rd party software. Android, Windows and Linux already allow this and macOS used to. IMO this should extend to game consoles too. You should be able to run homebrew games and tools on a console.

BonziBuddy for iOS is what the world is crying out for.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#400

Post by lawtalkinghuman »

seventhtiger wrote: post #344
AlphaSite wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if what you’re saying holds generally. I don’t know if people buy it for the AppStore, but I strongly suspect that most people don’t buy it despite the App Store.

Just add a billing item "30% Apple Fee" and you'll know their true feelings.

The app store: now with the usability of US sales taxes.
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