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Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

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Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#381

Post by canofbars »

jbverschoor wrote: post #358
canofbars wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you don't like the App Store, don't use an iPhone This is not the main issue, its on the other end. If you are a developer, and you don't like the App Store, you have no options. You can't publish on an alt store because those are not allowed. So your only option is to not provide services to 50% of your customers and thats assuming the google play store doesn't have the same issue you are avoiding. A real world…

Same for Nintendo, PS, Xbox, Android. And the other 'appstores' - steam, epic, etc Quite frankly, the lockdown of the OS and rejection of this is one of the primary reasons I'm on iPhone.

Yes all of those examples should also be liberated.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#382

Post by Traster »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #379

What's the actual theory of the case of how Apple are owed damages here? Obviously they're losing revenue from Fortnite but that would have happened if Epic just decided they don't like the rules and took the app down themselves instead of breaking them. I can't imagine Apple would be entitled to damages then and I can't see how they've lost more money than that. The other obvious thing is legal expenses, but you don…

There is a material difference between costing Apple revenue by doing something they're allowed to do and costing Apple revenue by breaching their agreement. They cost Apple revenue by circumventing the in-app purchase system and Apple will naturally want the lost revenue. My guess is they'll produce figures saying "We made 30% of X revenue from in-app purchases over Y time frame, this dropped to 30% of Z revenue after Epic breached our terms, so they owe us 30% of X-Z + punitive damages because they did this deliberately".

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#383

Post by thaumasiotes »

cf_ wrote: post #203

I really wish there was a third party - the customer - actually represented in this trial. Apple and Epic arguing over what is best for the customer, while clearly they are having their own interests in mind, screams for the actual customers to be represented. The whole argument about them promoting an app „for free“ is a bit ridiculous. They clearly knew the amount of commission they were going to earn from pushing…

> I really wish there was a third party - the customer - actually represented in this trial.

Isn't this the entire concept of amicus briefs?

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#384

Post by drexlspivey »

canofbars wrote: post #218
cf_ wrote: post #203

I really wish there was a third party - the customer - actually represented in this trial. Apple and Epic arguing over what is best for the customer, while clearly they are having their own interests in mind, screams for the actual customers to be represented. The whole argument about them promoting an app „for free“ is a bit ridiculous. They clearly knew the amount of commission they were going to earn from pushing…

The real problem here is that companies are forced to accept apples terms. Because apple controls every level of the stack, to opt out of the App store ToS you have to opt out of the store, the OS, and the hardware. If there was a way to install apps outside of the store this would not be an issue. Most users and developers would still use the app store since it provides value but devs who feel that they can supply t…

That argument is pretty rich coming from epic considering that they sign exclusive deals for games pretty aggressively for their Epic games store.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#385

Post by tobyhinloopen »

cf_ wrote: post #203

I really wish there was a third party - the customer - actually represented in this trial. Apple and Epic arguing over what is best for the customer, while clearly they are having their own interests in mind, screams for the actual customers to be represented. The whole argument about them promoting an app „for free“ is a bit ridiculous. They clearly knew the amount of commission they were going to earn from pushing…

Meanwhile the Apple AppStore is terrible for finding anything. It’s just a horrible list of most downloaded apps and a search bar, and even the search feature is bad.

For every other purpose like getting proper recommendations, you have to consult the internet.

Imagine having a “we think you will like these games because you played...” feature that works as well as Spotify’s or Steam’s recommendation engine. That will be a game changer for everyone, both consumers and developers.

I hope Apple will be forced to allow 3rd party stores, so we can get an Epic Games Store app, or a Steam Games Store app on our mobile devices.

The only thing worse than having multiple game launchers like we have on PC is having only one, and you cannot bypass it, and it’s awful, and it still asks for 30%.

I want multiple stores. Or I want Apple to seriously rethink their shitty store app. Preferably both.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#386

Post by thaumasiotes »

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #283
applecrazy wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> devs who feel that they can supply their own marketing and payment processing can do it themselves. The issue I have with that is that then a ton of companies think it's a good idea to ship a crappy "launcher" that needs to run on startup, taking up resources in the background while providing little to no added functionality. We can see that with PC games; it used to be just Steam, but now there's the Epic Games La…

The GoG launcher doesn't fit here as an example; it's entirely optional.

No, GoG Galaxy is not entirely optional. It is required to run many newer games, and can be required even if you're not trying to play multiplayer.

I don't understand how this is supposed to be compatible with GoG's marketing as "the DRM-free home for games".

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#387

Post by arvinsim »

tasssko wrote: post #369
realusername wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ToS is up to the owner of the platform When there's only two companies fully controlling the next era of computing platforms, there's some argument that they have way too much power in their hand. > The game is like a car that drives on a road. The car is Epic's Fortnite. The road is a toll road. The road was built by Apple. Many cars can drive on this road but must pay a fee. (The analogy isn't 1:1 but work wi…

A better analogy is the game is like a ride at a theme park. The theme park was built by Apple. Many companies can make games/rides for the theme park but must pay a share of revenue from each customer going on rides. You can go on a ride at the theme park but you pay an entrance fee for the theme park and you pay to go on the rides.

Are theme parks essential to your daily life?

Because that what smartphones has become.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#388

Post by tasssko »

arvinsim wrote: post #387
tasssko wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better analogy is the game is like a ride at a theme park. The theme park was built by Apple. Many companies can make games/rides for the theme park but must pay a share of revenue from each customer going on rides. You can go on a ride at the theme park but you pay an entrance fee for the theme park and you pay to go on the rides.

Are theme parks essential to your daily life? Because that what smartphones has become.

Fortnite essential to daily life?

Actually nothing on my phone is essential to daily life.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#389

Post by AnthonyMouse »

drexlspivey wrote: post #384
canofbars wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem here is that companies are forced to accept apples terms. Because apple controls every level of the stack, to opt out of the App store ToS you have to opt out of the store, the OS, and the hardware. If there was a way to install apps outside of the store this would not be an issue. Most users and developers would still use the app store since it provides value but devs who feel that they can supply t…

That argument is pretty rich coming from epic considering that they sign exclusive deals for games pretty aggressively for their Epic games store.

When has a developer ever been forced into an exclusive deal? They get paid extra for that. It's pro-competitive, because it's what allows new stores to get off the ground, meanwhile nothing stops you from using Epic's store and Steam and five others at the same time. The biggest problem with Apple's store isn't what they allow into it, it's that people can't use it and any other store at the same time.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#390

Post by tschwimmer »

mythz wrote: post #255
raydev wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> This license is free to use and incurs 5% royalties when you monetize your game or other interactive off-the-shelf product and your lifetime gross revenues from that product exceed $1,000,000 USD. > And Epic doesn't even provide quality control, a discovery mechanism, or payment processing. Apple takes 30% off all purchases upfront, and maybe they'll cut you a deal if you're Netflix-size. On top of that, Apple's "…

> Apple takes 30% off all purchases upfront, and maybe they'll cut you a deal if you're Netflix-size. Netflix, like Kindle & Spotify are "Reader" Apps which pay 0% Royalty. [1] https://www.apple.com/ios/app-store/principles-practices/#:~...

To be fair, you can’t sign up for a Netflix account on iOS. Arguably the entire transaction is taking place off platform.
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