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Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

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Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ToS is up to the owner of the platform When there's only two companies fully controlling the next era of computing platforms, there's some argument that they have way too much power in their hand. > The game is like a car that drives on a road. The car is Epic's Fortnite. The road is a toll road. The road was built by Apple. Many cars can drive on this road but must pay a fee. (The analogy isn't 1:1 but work wi…

It is owned by Apple in that they own the OS. If I wanted full autonomy I’d root my phone. The whole appeal of the phone is the secure cohesive experience not the hodge-podge setup of the PC for example. It’s much more of a console in that sense.

> The whole appeal of the phone is the secure cohesive experience not the hodge-podge setup of the PC for example

I doubt non-tech people even know about the walled-garden or the anti-competitive practices of both companies, they just buy their device based on features, screen and camera and that's it. Just have a look at a mainstream phone review video on YouTube, only those points will be detailed.

To consumers it's clearly the next area of computing. Smartphones are even fully replacing computers in developing markets. To developers however, it's an unhealthy market owned by two uncountable companies where they could be banned from at any point very easily.

There's multiple angles where the current situation is an issue, there's the anti competitive nature of the market where an increasing chunk of the economy is based on but there's also the limited propriety rights of the owners of the phone.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#312
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They seem not quite the same to me. A game built with Unreal Engine is essentially powered by it and would not exist otherwise. A game deployed to an iPhone could theoretically be acquired through an alternative app store or just direct download. Apple's app store provides no utility to developers other than being the forced walled monopoly that all developers must list through. The proper analogy to Epic charging fo…

>A game deployed to an iPhone could theoretically be acquired through an alternative app store or just direct download This is false; unless theoretically means there's no concept of "money" involved in our world. A game deployed to an iPhone must be compatible with the hardware chip supplied on the iPhone, must be built using APIs designed, built and committed to be supported by the iPhone. Apps can't be built out o…

> > A game deployed to an iPhone could theoretically be acquired through an alternative app store or just direct download.

> This is false; unless theoretically means there's no concept of "money" involved in our world.

I am fairly sure that Apple has already produced a general purpose computing device that also requires applications deployed to it to be compatible with its CPU and to be built using APIs designed and built by Apple, but nonetheless lets applications be acquired for it through other means, including direct download.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#313

I look forward to Epic's next set of suits against Sony and Microsoft, who offer basically identical terms for inclusion on the app platforms for Playstation and Xbox, respectively.

Do those platforms prevent you from directing people to your own website or payment system for IAP or forbid you from mentioning the fees associated? I haven’t bought any IAPs for a console, so I’m not sure.

Actually in console world it's exactly the same, see [1]. Sony even pockets the same fee - 30 percent - off every DLC transaction.

[1] https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2020/08/playstation_makes_mo...

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#314
post #65

> it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise that simply wants to pay nothing for the tremendous value it derives from the App Store. Half true. EPIC doesn't really get any value from the App Store except data delivery, which they're more than willing to do themselves. Fortnite is popular enough that the app discovery part of the store is meaningless.

Over in Android land, discovery is so meaningless that they switched from sideloading to being in Google Play. As much as I want Epic to be right here, I strongly suspect they're wrong. Apple and Google have trained people to be completely and utterly helpless which (totally coincidentally!) locks people into the app stores forever.

I had a kid at church show me how to sideload a GBA emulator on an iphone the other year. (I think someone lost a certificate signing key that had since expired, it required setting the clock back before installing.)

I think people underestimate the lengths bored teenagers will go through to play video games, especially free ones.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#315
post #302

No company has pushed me more strongly towards the ideologies RMS (who I still think is a bit crazy) writes about than Apple. At this point I’m convinced there needs to be a law against closed devices and closed software.

“I like my newfound ideology so much, I think it should be written into law”

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't a better analogy that car dealerships deserve revenue for selling Toyota's cars? That depends. Is the car dealership making it impossible for me, as a buyer, to buy from different car dealerships, and forcing me to only buy it from them? That would be a more similar analogy. Epic would likely not have any problem at all, if it was possible to easily install the epic app store on the iPhone. But its not. Becau…

Uhhh well isn't it more like Tesla? There are no Tesla dealerships in the traditional sense — only Tesla-owned sales locations. You can't buy a new Tesla from any local dealership; you can only get them directly from Tesla's stores. You can switch to Android, and in fact Android holds the global majority of smartphone users (yes yes, iOS is the majority in the US by a small margin). I think we need to rethink the who…

> You can't buy a new Tesla from any local dealership; you can only get them directly from Tesla's stores.

No, not really. I am pretty sure that it is perfectly legal for other people to buy and then resell teslas.

I do not believe that Tesla is suing people who resell Teslas.

> the global majority of smartphone users

In the USA, the Iphone has about 50% of the smart phone market. And when it comes to US anti-trust law, thats all that matters.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is owned by Apple in that they own the OS. If I wanted full autonomy I’d root my phone. The whole appeal of the phone is the secure cohesive experience not the hodge-podge setup of the PC for example. It’s much more of a console in that sense.

> The whole appeal of the phone is the secure cohesive experience not the hodge-podge setup of the PC for example I doubt non-tech people even know about the walled-garden or the anti-competitive practices of both companies, they just buy their device based on features, screen and camera and that's it. Just have a look at a mainstream phone review video on YouTube, only those points will be detailed. To consumers it'…

I’m no iOS dev but I work in the tech field and am well into the ecosystem of Apple but also follow the company both in podcasts and online and am fully aware of the walled garden and it’s a feature for me it a bug.

Also, I get the sense that people are trying to impose OSS-isms on Apple when they both have no power to and also Apple has no reason to abide.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#318

I look forward to Epic's next set of suits against Sony and Microsoft, who offer basically identical terms for inclusion on the app platforms for Playstation and Xbox, respectively.

Microsoft allows installing unsigned games on the Xbox and neither are marketing their devices as a PC.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#319
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just charge them for development tools Thing is, Apple still charges $100 USD per year for a developer license which lets you distribute your app, so this is already happening! :)

Yep. From the court documents, Apple said there are 27M AppStore registered devs. Even if only half of those pay $100 per year that's still about $1.3B per year.

Pennies, when compared with console devkit prices.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#320
Note: I am not a lawyer but I have been doing a deep dive into the legal background behind this case. Ultimately I believe the outcome of this case will depend on two questions:

1. Can Epic establish that iOS app distribution is in fact a valid antitrust market that Apple has monopoly control over?

Epic argues that Apple is abusing its "monopoly" over the iOS app distribution market. However, in an antitrust case you cannot simply declare an arbitrarily narrow market where the defendant is the only participant and expect the court to accept it. iOS app distribution is an "aftermarket" of the smartphone market, and as a general rule, US courts do not permit antitrust markets to be based on a single brand's product unless specific exceptions are met.

> "In general, a manufacturer's own products do not themselves comprise a relevant product market..... [A] company does not violate the Sherman Act by virtue of the natural monopoly it holds over its own product." Apple Inc. v. Psystar Corp.

The circumstances in which the courts have allowed a single brand's product to be treated as a valid antitrust market have usually involved situations where the customer purchased a product not knowing they would be locked into some aftermarket restriction, for example due to a change in contract or company policy. If, on the other hand, customers knew about the restriction ahead of time, could have purchased an alternative product without restrictions, and went ahead and purchased anyway, the market power deriving from that restriction is generally not considered a valid basis for an antitrust claim.

Of particular note is that courts routinely reject market definitions based on restrictions stipulated in EULAs that customers voluntarily agreed to when purchasing the original product. For example, in Blizzard Entertainment Inc. v. Ceiling Fan Software LLC, the court rejected the defendant's claim that Blizzard held monopoly power in the "WoW add-on software" aftermarket, because WoW customers explicitly agreed to WoW's EULA stipulating they would only used Blizzard authorized WoW add-ons when they purchased the game. Similarly, in Apple Inc. v. Psystar Corp., the court rejected Psystar's claim that Apple held monopoly power in the "hardware that runs Mac OS" aftermarket because customers "knowingly agreed to the challenged restraint" when they purchaed Mac OS.

Interestingly enough, I double checked and surprisingly the iPhone EULA does not appear to have language restricting app installation to the "App Store and other authorized sources only". If it did, I believe Epic would have trouble getting past here. However, even in absence of an explicit contractual restriction, the court permits an analysis of "whether a consumer's selection of a particular brand in the competitive market is the functional equivalent of a contractual commitment". This analysis is explained in Newcal Industries, Inc. v. IKON Office Solution which describes four relevant aspects to consider:

a) The existence of two separate but related markets. Epic alleges these are "smartphone OSes" and "app distribution". It's not clear to me whether these two markets need to be economically distinct (more on the meaning of this below), but it could be problematic for Epic if they do.

b) The allegations of illegal monopolization relate only to the aftermarket. (This is a given.)

c) Whether the source of the company's market power is based on contractual provisions obtained in the initial market or based on the company's relationship with its customers. Epic argues that in the absence of a EULA there is no contractual relationship, while Apple will presumably argue that there is a quasi-contractual agreement in place because they made the app installation policy very clear at the launch of the App Store and it has never changed.

d) Whether market imperfections prevent customers from realizing their choice in the initial market will impact their freedom to shop in the aftermarket. In other words, did customers "make a knowing choice to restrict their aftermarket options" when they decided to buy an iPhone instead of a different phone that allowed side-loading?

I think Epic is going to have a particularly tough time establishing (c) and (d). If the court concludes that customers purchased iPhones knowing that they would be restricted to installing apps from the App Store, then Apple's "monopoly" over iOS app distribution is based on the customer's knowing consent, and therefore will not be a valid basis for an antitrust claim.

We'll see what the court decides. But in any event, even if Epic succeeds in proving that Apple has a monopoly over iOS app distribution, the job is not done. They then need to prove that Apple used that monopoly to illegally restrain competition in another market, which brings us to question 2.

2. Can Epic establish that iOS app payment processing is a separate and distinct product from iOS app distribution?

In order to prove Apple illegally tied app distribution and payment processing together, Epic will need to show that the two are actually economically distinct products.

> "[T]here must be a coherent economic basis for treating the tying and tied products as distinct. All but the simplest products can be broken down into two or more components that are "tied together" in the final sale. Unless it is to be illegal to sell cars with engines or cameras with lenses, this analysis must be guided by some limiting principle. For products to be treated as distinct, the tied product must, at a minimum, be one that some consumers might wish to purchase separately without also purchasing the tying product. When the tied product has no use other than in conjunction with the tying product, a seller of the tying product can acquire no additional market power by selling the two products together." Jefferson Parish Hospital Dist. No. 2 v. Hyde

In Jefferson Parish, the Supreme Court ruled anesthesiological services were not economically distinct from hospital services because anesthesiological services were always sold in conjunction with other hospital services, and therefore tying the two together was not illegal. In Rick-Mik Enterprises, Inc. v. Equilon Enterprises, LLC, credit card processing was considered an essential component of a gas station franchise and therefore was not economically distinct from the sale of the franchise itself. The legal test for whether two tied products are economically distinct has historically depended on whether consumer demand exists for the tied product separate from the tying product, but it's not clear whether that test is appropriate here.

For the case of paid apps, there clearly aren't economically distinct products. If Apple distributes a paid app on behalf of a developer and collects a fee in exchange, the fee is the cost of using Apple's distribution service. Distribution and payment happen simultaneously, they are not separate services, therefore there is no tie between them.

Now, what happens if Apple initially distributes the app without a fee and (later) takes a fee when an in-app purchase is made? Does the act of deferring the payment from the download create two economically distinct products when before there was only one? Apple argues that it does not, and similar to Rick-Mik, in-app payment processing is simply a component of its app distribution service.

I don't know if this argument will hold up in court but it's certainly very interesting and probably venturing into uncharted territory as far as existing precedent is concerned. But if the court does decide that in-app payment processing services are not economically distinct from app distribution services, then Epic is going to have difficulties with their tying claim.

Overall these are very tough questions and as the judge said, it's not a slam dunk for either side. I tend to think Epic is fighting the uphill battle here, as existing US antitrust law seems like it favors the defendant in cases like this. If Epic does win, it's certainly going to open up a lot of similar questions for other companies that sell tightly controlled hardware and software. (Particularly on the console side, but also stuff like smart TVs and even cars.)

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