Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19 • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#521

Post by DoreenMichele » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 11:41 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #519

jonny_eh wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you still have time for HN!

Yeah, I am pretty capable of procrastination. HN is a tempting alternative to drawing up another Miro diagram, or studying for my algorithms class (something else I can blame on HN, I might never have heard of OMSCS if not for someone mentioning it here ;-)). There was a time when I knew dynamic programming well enough to pass an algorithms class, but that time was in the 90s. I feel old now.

HN is often about feeding your mind. It's about getting the inputs you need.

That other stuff is about coming up with outputs, often from a dry well. HN feeds the well for a great many people.

(Just a general observation, not really intended to be argumentative per se.)

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#522

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 11:42 PM UTC

markus_zhang wrote: post #269

codemac wrote: post #5

Personally, I struggle with these feelings as well. It seems nuts that someone working 50%+ less than someone else is going to keep all the same equity, vacation, and salary. Then again it seems nuts that they don't. All employees who had children or family members to care for before or after COVID get none of the same support. I don't think backpay is coming for those who were forced to take leave or even quit their…

That's the reason I'm all for socializing child-care. Certain companies have the budget to pull out certain form of "socialized" day-care by purchasing child care from suppliers but most companies can't do that. The state should do that.

What's the point if things getting closed is for social distancing? Maybe I don't follow but I don't even see how money can solve that besides parents not just working and taking care of their kids.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#523

Post by rootusrootus » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 11:43 PM UTC

jbay808 wrote: post #318

rootusrootus wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

(Edited to clarify my intended meaning) > I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. For those childless co-workers that wish they could accept the other end of this deal, this phrase is both common and quite painful to hear. Please consider not using it unless you really mean it, which you don't, as you actually wouldn't give up your kids for anything.

It wasn't meant with malice nor any intent to cause negative feelings. I think it's not really possible to say anything at all that won't possibly distress someone out of all the possible readers, so I just try to keep my intentions good and avoid the obvious gaffes. In this case it's just a figure of speech.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#524

Post by mike_d » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 11:45 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #291

One thing I wish I could make my childless peers grok is that THERE IS NO VACATION when you have young kids. I’m taking this week off and people speak as if I’m on vacation. Please please hear my words literally: my job is my break. Weekends are more physically and intellectually exhausting than weekdays when I get to $&@# off to work for eight hours. My paid time off is a way to give us a fighting chance at laundry…

That is called life. There is no vacation when you have a sick spouse, or bought a new house, or are in a car accident. Your job shouldn't be your break, regardless of your situation.

My wife is at a FAANG company currently covering for 4 people who all get double digit weeks off because they chose to have children. Does she get any time off for literally working 18 hour days 7 days a week? No of course not.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#525

Post by Aeolun » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 11:45 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #312

jdm2212 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone has to provide the goods and services you'll consume when you're old. Those people are today's kids, whose parents are doing you a big favor at considerable expense to themselves. Raising children isn't like smoking, a hobby, a side hustle, or other miscellaneous personal obligations. It's more like military service and jury duty -- an essential service that some people perform to ensure that society as we kn…

Then is it cool if I skip a few meetings to volunteer to help the homeless? We already heavily subsidise child-rearing through taxes and other benefits. As I said elsewhere, there are mechanisms for supporting parents already. If you tried to let any other charitable endeavour take over your work schedule, you wouldn't expect your compensation to remain unaffected. I'm not resentful at parents. It just seems complete…

One of the many reasons I have had kids is as a service to humanity. It’s definitely fun, but way too many people just cannot be bothered so someone has to.

I kind of want our race/country/planet to continue existing even if I can’t.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#526

Post by brd529 » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 11:46 PM UTC

Viliam1234 wrote: post #509

nicbou wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't fully agree with you. Back when I worked in retail or fast food, smokers could step out for a 5 minute smoke break every once in a while. As a non-smoker, I wasn't allowed to just sit there for 5 minutes. At the end of the day, we got paid the same, but smokers got 30 minutes off, courtesy of the non-smokers who picked up the slack. Likewise, parents are excused from work because they have children. I fully a…

As a parent, I would love to have an opportunity to work part-time. Suppose I work 3 days a week, and my wife works 2 days a week, we can arrange those days so that each day someone can be with kids. (It might hypothetically even be 3 days + 3 days if one of the jobs would allow Saturdays.) Working 3/5 time for 3/5 salary would feel fair towards my colleagues. (Many of us work on multiple projects at the same time, s…

100% this. I do believe that a lot of two-job families would love for one or both parents to go part time. This way one parent doesn't have to 'give up' their career. Some generic advice I give to new grads which I never considered until I had kids was to seriously consider a medical profession because it is well-paying AND has a strong culture of part-time where shift work is the norm.

I've seen parents who negotiate hard for three days a week get it, but they are quickly 'mommy tracked' and stop getting promotions. Additionally when a crisis at work happens on their off day, they still get the call.

I think a tech company that figures out how to make part-time jobs work culturally will have a huge recruiting and talent advantage, especially this year. I haven't seen it pulled off yet though.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#527

Post by mike_d » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 11:48 PM UTC

throwaway5792 wrote: post #366

jartelt wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not necessarily just hostility to parents. I see it more as hostility to the HR policies in place at some of the companies. A new parent at facebook gets 4 months leave after the birth and then can take another 10 weeks of family leave. Alternatively, non parent employees at facebook can take 3 days off to cope with stress or else need to take sick days. Otherwise they can take sick days, which probably would b…

What's the solution? Allow non parents to take 10 weeks off for health issues? What if then a parent has a baby and then has some other health issues. Can they take 20 weeks off? Or would that be unfair because as parents they can take 20 weeks vs 10 for the single person?

Is it too much to ask that everyone be treated equally?

Family status is a protected class, unless you are childfree. If we said everyone except Hispanics gets an extra 10 weeks paid time off, HN would be losing its collective minds.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#528

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 11:49 PM UTC

johnjj257 wrote: post #251

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #20

This reminds me of local retirees who are resentful that their taxes are paying for public schools. They seem to have forgotten that someone paid for them to attend school. Regarding parental time off, it's conceivable that their own parents never had that support. Maternal/parental leave is taking decades to roll out - perhaps as long as it took for public schooling to become universally available.

The problem with this analogy is that everyone uses the school system at some point in their life, but not everyone is a parent at some point.

But your workmates kids push the society forward so you will have better retirement and their taxes will pay for your roads you gonna use with your wheelchair when you're old and grumpy.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#529

Post by fraudsyndrome » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 11:49 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #268

ethanwillis wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get the perk of more flexibility because they're providing a service to society, raising children for the next generation. You don't get this perk because you didn't have children. Your contribution is more work because you have more time to do it.

This argument is made again and again in this thread, and it never got addressed. 1. There are already functional mechanisms for contribution. A single, childless person is already contributing more through their taxes. The government already heavily subsidises child-rearing. 2. Child-rearing is given an arbitrary pass that other equally charitable actions wouldn't get. A single, childless person couldn't let his com…

> 3. I'm not sure if "children are our future" is our future. This model might not be viable forever as the world population keeps growing. This is a whole other can of worms.

I think you bring up some good points and also I can sympathise with the parents in my workplace that had this issue thrust upon them due to covid. I won't comment on them nor does it personally affect my work much, if at all - barely anyone on my team are parents and those that are are making it work so I'm not picking up any extra work because of their kids.

But I have never heard of any parent ever say that they are having kids because children are the future so it's odd for me to see so many people say that in this thread. I don't need parents to justify to me why it's harder for them, I already agree with that but the future thing is a very interesting viewpoint I've never personally come across before.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#530

Post by tptacek » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 11:50 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #160

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

I don't fully agree with you. Back when I worked in retail or fast food, smokers could step out for a 5 minute smoke break every once in a while. As a non-smoker, I wasn't allowed to just sit there for 5 minutes. At the end of the day, we got paid the same, but smokers got 30 minutes off, courtesy of the non-smokers who picked up the slack. Likewise, parents are excused from work because they have children. I fully a…

It is not reasonable to compare smokers to parents. Your irritation at smokers is reasonable, but it doesn't translate automatically to other categories of employee.