Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19 • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#261

Post by m0zg » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

gones00n wrote: post #161

mc32 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Parents are making sacrifices which benefit society as a whole. Those children the parents are taking care of now will be the ones who will provide for the one complaining now via taxes as well as services rendered to them. If anything, companies should be providing more childcare so that more women (as well as some men) will have less of a burden balancing career and caregiving. I see these people as being…

"Benefit society as a whole" sounds good in theory but rarely works in practice because people are inherently self-interested. A simple counterargument is that someone's kids may not turn out at all to be productive members of society. Fundamentally corporations are different to the government. So whereas government can tax and progressively tax to soften wealth inequalities, corporations ultimately need to be profit…

> "Benefit society as a whole" sounds good in theory but rarely works in practice because people are inherently self-interested

This is a very immature POV, IMO. Self interest can, and arguably _should_, be aligned with the benefit to society. That is, in fact, the only way to get _reliable_ benefit to society in the first place. Nobody gets anywhere by trying to piss up a rope. In any situation, you get the behavior you reward. So "self interest" is a good thing, when it's properly aligned to the broader whole.

And if we were to strictly worry about "benefit to society" then one could argue that childless people should earn less, since their amortized value to society in the long term is much lower than that of parents.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#262

Post by jtsiskin » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #147

mc32 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Parents are making sacrifices which benefit society as a whole. Those children the parents are taking care of now will be the ones who will provide for the one complaining now via taxes as well as services rendered to them. If anything, companies should be providing more childcare so that more women (as well as some men) will have less of a burden balancing career and caregiving. I see these people as being…

What I've seen is the complaints are largely coming from couples that want to raise kids while both parents work full time jobs. Asking for fewer hours so you can continue that lifestyle is asking your employer and fellow employees to subsidize your second income, not your ability to have and raise children. My coworkers with SAH spouses aren't feeling the burn anywhere near as badly -- it's just an extended summer f…

I’m not sure I buy this argument due to the disruptions of COVID. Pre-COVID, both parents working full time may have made total sense.

With daycare, nannies, and/or school it’s perfectly reasonable both parents can have full time jobs. One parent may have even delayed their career during the youngest years and only recently resumed work.

The issue now is COVID makes these childcare options impossible, so it isn’t the parents fault for both working, and they have a momentary huge increase in childcare responsibility. This is not something they could have planned for and suggesting one parent quits their job and stays at home is unfair.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#263

Post by sokoloff » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:40 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #169

WWLink wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's the "they have x, why don't i?" attitude that causes a lot of problems. It should be an "everyone should have x!" attitude instead. At the end of the day, everyone's human, so there should be a little bit of slack in the staffing - long term - so that when someone's unavailable, nobody is drowning.

That's the argument I made above. If they get paid 100% of their salary for 80% of the output, so should everyone else. I compared it to smokers taking smoke breaks while non-smokers aren't allowed to take random 5 minute breaks.

At a place where smokers can take random 5-minute breaks, I can practically guarantee that non-smokers can as well.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#264

Post by johnjj257 » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:40 PM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #163

aaomidi wrote: post #152

What I find short sighted about these policies are they don't realize that people without children can also feel stressed and need more time off. e.g. if you're single during this time, you are completely isolated from the world, and your colleagues. This can be extremely difficult mentally and on an individual level can be much harder than just someone with a kid. These policies shouldn't be "oh if you have kids you…

I agree with your assessment about how social distancing is in some ways worse for singles, but I fail to see how time off would help.

I'm sure to many being isolated and working non stop is worse than being isolated and having more free time.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#265

Post by Mirioron » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:40 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #204

kevstev wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mid 30s childless man I completely agree. We essentially sent people home on a Friday, told them to figure out a work from home situation, and then they were told welp your kids aren't going to school either, and whatever childcare you had lined up has now vanished too- and this is all happening in the course of a few days at most. So now you have kids to worry about all day, home schooling to oversee, focusing…

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

>I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now.

Yes, some things come with downsides. I'm sure a lot of people would also want to trade places with you during the happy times you have with your kids. But you can't usually get the benefits without the downsides.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#266

Post by jknz » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:40 PM UTC

Managing remote school sessions plus my work was a mess.

I made my 10 and 12yo kids drop their remote school stuff and work with me instead. The young one is responsible for slack, keeping everyone in the living room updated and replying with text and the occasional gif, he also summarizes with voice important incoming emails. Older one writes python code alongside me and I now mostly check her syntax. She learned git at the beginning of the pandemic and my manager is now impressed that commits from us get pushed while I am on the phone with him.

The kids drafted an email yesterday to ask for a raise and align my compensation with that of 1senior+2juniors SWE. Fingers crossed

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#267

Post by YarickR2 » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:40 PM UTC

evan_ wrote: post #217

luckylion wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they are unhappy about their managers' decision to favor their colleagues. If you give a tax rebate to anyone who's last name starts with A, are the other people not allowed to be annoyed, given that they have to pay more taxes to make up for the rebate? "Why can't you just be happy for the A people?" feels weird. Just pay those not taking time off for the time they would've taken off. It's not a complicated conc…

If there are fewer people working the managers should be scheduling less work. In your “tax rebate” example you should be upset with whoever decided to issue rebates in that way, not the people who received the rebate.

"Scheduling less work" means less profit for everyone. Should everyone take a pay cut because of child-caring workers ?

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#268

Post by nicbou » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:40 PM UTC

ethanwillis wrote: post #234

nicbou wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't fully agree with you. Back when I worked in retail or fast food, smokers could step out for a 5 minute smoke break every once in a while. As a non-smoker, I wasn't allowed to just sit there for 5 minutes. At the end of the day, we got paid the same, but smokers got 30 minutes off, courtesy of the non-smokers who picked up the slack. Likewise, parents are excused from work because they have children. I fully a…

They get the perk of more flexibility because they're providing a service to society, raising children for the next generation. You don't get this perk because you didn't have children. Your contribution is more work because you have more time to do it.

This argument is made again and again in this thread, and it never got addressed.

1. There are already functional mechanisms for contribution. A single, childless person is already contributing more through their taxes. The government already heavily subsidises child-rearing.

2. Child-rearing is given an arbitrary pass that other equally charitable actions wouldn't get. A single, childless person couldn't let his commitment to Doctors Without Borders affect his work performance.

3. I'm not sure if "children are our future" is our future. This model might not be viable forever as the world population keeps growing. This is a whole other can of worms.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#269

Post by markus_zhang » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:40 PM UTC

codemac wrote: post #5

Personally, I struggle with these feelings as well. It seems nuts that someone working 50%+ less than someone else is going to keep all the same equity, vacation, and salary. Then again it seems nuts that they don't. All employees who had children or family members to care for before or after COVID get none of the same support. I don't think backpay is coming for those who were forced to take leave or even quit their…

That's the reason I'm all for socializing child-care. Certain companies have the budget to pull out certain form of "socialized" day-care by purchasing child care from suppliers but most companies can't do that. The state should do that.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#270

Post by jartelt » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:41 PM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #163

aaomidi wrote: post #152

What I find short sighted about these policies are they don't realize that people without children can also feel stressed and need more time off. e.g. if you're single during this time, you are completely isolated from the world, and your colleagues. This can be extremely difficult mentally and on an individual level can be much harder than just someone with a kid. These policies shouldn't be "oh if you have kids you…

I agree with your assessment about how social distancing is in some ways worse for singles, but I fail to see how time off would help.

Time off would allow people to relax, work on a hobby, exercise, etc. If you are feeling run down after working from a crappy, crammed apartment for 3 months, it can be refreshing to get an extra week or so off work with no questions asked.