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How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

dailytimes.com.pk

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Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#51

Post by keiferski »

projectramo wrote: post #30

I feel for the rather confused and well meaning non-subcontinent related people who have waded into a culture war. In South Asia - especially India — the moghuls are a loaded topic at the moment. There is an extreme right wing government that is focused on a Hindu resurgence (fine) at the expense of non Hindus (not fine), and the central justification is look how badly we were treated in the past. All the moghuls hav…

Yeah, I discovered Akbar through reading about Persian miniatures, the Mongols, and related topics, and thought he was an interesting historical figure. I didn't realize the Mughals were such a hot-button contemporary political issue.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#52

Post by drieddust »

srean wrote: post #46
drieddust wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is political because they were political. It is because of them India's history education starts and ends with Mughals. Even Mughal's contampories like Marathas, Sikhs, Vijay Nagar, Ahoms kingdoms etc don't find any place in the history books? Do you think these omissions from Indians History books are happen-stances: - Dutch came to India before English but they were crushed by Vijay Nagar Empire.[1] - Ahoms…

Your [1] through [3] are absolutely true. Dont forget the Chutiyas. Of the three, [1] and [3] were covered well in our history class in standards 7 then again in 9 and 10. Palas of Bengal got a mention, again for obvious reasons. Theirs was perhaps the largest empire in India by area (significantly larger than say the area of Gupta empire at its peak, perhaps Maurya's too, not very sure of that). We had a pretty good…

When I read history none of this was in our books. May be it got added now or may be Bengal have different books. On the subject of Maratha invasion of Bengal. Kings invading each other's territory is very different from carrying out raids to kill the infidels. Carrying out general massacre, destroying places of worship is unique to Islamic invasions.[1]

[1] A Self-Study Course on Political Islam

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#53

Post by srean »

drieddust wrote: post #52
srean wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your [1] through [3] are absolutely true. Dont forget the Chutiyas. Of the three, [1] and [3] were covered well in our history class in standards 7 then again in 9 and 10. Palas of Bengal got a mention, again for obvious reasons. Theirs was perhaps the largest empire in India by area (significantly larger than say the area of Gupta empire at its peak, perhaps Maurya's too, not very sure of that). We had a pretty good…

When I read history none of this was in our books. May be it got added now or may be Bengal have different books. On the subject of Maratha invasion of Bengal. Kings invading each other's territory is very different from carrying out raids to kill the infidels. Carrying out general massacre, destroying places of worship is unique to Islamic invasions.[1] [1] A Self-Study Course on Political Islam

> May be it got added now

Far from it. This is from 1987.

> is unique to Islamic invasions

Far from it. Mongols, Christians, Huns ... I will run out of space if i have to keep mentioning all the ones that I know of.

I think what you are talking about reflects poor history curriculum and teaching rather than conspiracy. Might it be a projection of a collective low self esteem felt by a class of people who got left behind economically and culturally

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#54

Post by drieddust »

srean wrote: post #53
drieddust wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I read history none of this was in our books. May be it got added now or may be Bengal have different books. On the subject of Maratha invasion of Bengal. Kings invading each other's territory is very different from carrying out raids to kill the infidels. Carrying out general massacre, destroying places of worship is unique to Islamic invasions.[1] [1] A Self-Study Course on Political Islam

> May be it got added now Far from it. This is from 1987. > is unique to Islamic invasions Far from it. Mongols, Christians, Huns ... I will run out of space if i have to keep mentioning all the ones that I know of. I think what you are talking about reflects poor history curriculum and teaching rather than conspiracy. Might it be a projection of a collective low self esteem felt by a class of people who got left beh…

> Far from it. This is from 1987.

Debate on Maratha history is still going on[1] other chapters of history is yet to be opened and taught.

> Far from it. Mongols, Christians, Huns ... I will run out of space if i have to keep mentioning all the ones that I know of.

Mongols were pretty inclusive and tolerant towards religion until they converted to Islam[2]

Hunas never succedded in invading India. I am not sure which history you have read. Last hun Mihirakula was defeated by Yashodharman and he too was a Shavite.[3]

Christians represent same Abrahmic idea so yes they were also brutal towards other religions but not to same level.[4]

> Might it be a projection of a collective low self esteem felt by a class of people who got left behind economically and culturally

Are you sure I am culturally "left behind"?

[1] https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/pune/Maratha-histor...

[2] http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/mongols/history/history7.htm

[3] Rajtargini by Kalhana

[4] A Self-Study Course on Political Islam

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#55

Post by srean »

drieddust wrote: post #54
srean wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> May be it got added now Far from it. This is from 1987. > is unique to Islamic invasions Far from it. Mongols, Christians, Huns ... I will run out of space if i have to keep mentioning all the ones that I know of. I think what you are talking about reflects poor history curriculum and teaching rather than conspiracy. Might it be a projection of a collective low self esteem felt by a class of people who got left beh…

> Far from it. This is from 1987. Debate on Maratha history is still going on[1] other chapters of history is yet to be opened and taught. > Far from it. Mongols, Christians, Huns ... I will run out of space if i have to keep mentioning all the ones that I know of. Mongols were pretty inclusive and tolerant towards religion until they converted to Islam[2] Hunas never succedded in invading India. I am not sure which…

> Are you sure I am culturally "left behind"?

Was not commenting you or Indian history (hence Huns and Mongols, the latter were warded off by the Delhi Sultanate, which Indian right wingers find hard to acknowledge) but the phenomena of rise of right wing pathos in the world. Most of the time it has arisen it has from a sense of being left behind, or 'stabbed in the back' narrative.

In the Indian context I have seen right wing sympathies among those who feel uncool, among low self esteem men (the gender bias is quite surprising). This is not the only birthing factor, but from anecdotal evidence from my own surroundings, it matched many examples.

> Carrying out general massacre, destroying places of worship

>

You mean Mongols did not do general massacre with and without destruction of places of worship prior to turning to Islam. If you believe so, that would be quite an unique belief.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#56

Post by srean »

legolas2412 wrote: post #43
srean wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given Kieferski's qualification "tolerant the times" I dont see that he is egregiously wrong. Emperor Ashoka who is considered kindness personified had Kalinga butchered among other places -- till his empire was big enough that more campaigns and conquests were unnecessary. At that point he turned the peaceful Buddhist.

Uhh, ashoka wasn't called kind and peaceful for his kalinga conquest, but how he transformed afterwards. Unless you also think of nelson mandela as a terrorist?

> Uhh, ashoka wasn't called kind and peaceful for his kalinga conquest, but how he transformed afterwards.

Yes exactly. Perhaps I did not write my comment well enough. Its debatable whether he actually became a non-violent pacifist out of remorse or whether most of the empire building was complete and he no longer had aspirations for more territory. Kalinga was important for its ports that Maurya empire needed more of.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#57

Post by drieddust »

puranjay wrote: post #35
n_t wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the hype, Akbar was not tolerant at all. Like most Muslim kings in India, he was heavy-handed towards Hindus but was also towards Shia Muslim [1]. He ordered numerous massacre of Hindus (e.g. massacre in Garha in 1560 AD[2], order to weight Janeu - a cotton thread worn by hindus - of killed Hindus which weighed 200kg [3], rewarded Abd al-Qadir Badauni with gold coins who soak his Islamic beard in Hindu infide…

Nations are usually built on lies. Most countries would likely fall apart if they were completely truthful about their histories. In India's case, the whitewashing of Mughal rule was a necessity because there are still a substantial number of Muslims living in India, and painting their ancestors - the Mughals - as barbaric invaders would likely lead to violence (especially when seen in the context of the Partition vi…

> In India's case, the whitewashing of Mughal rule was a necessity because there are still a substantial number of Muslims living in India ....

There are substantial level of German living in Germany, let's not teach them about Nazis? Interpreted other way you are advocating appeasement of people who already have superiority complex due to their religious beliefs.

History should be taught as it is? No lies. If Marathas were the aggressive towards Punjab and Bengal, teach it.

> I'm not sure of the answer .... ancestors.

How will you achieve that if you whitewash. Mature position requires understanding the past and then moving on.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#59

Post by ignoramous »

puranjay wrote: post #35
n_t wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the hype, Akbar was not tolerant at all. Like most Muslim kings in India, he was heavy-handed towards Hindus but was also towards Shia Muslim [1]. He ordered numerous massacre of Hindus (e.g. massacre in Garha in 1560 AD[2], order to weight Janeu - a cotton thread worn by hindus - of killed Hindus which weighed 200kg [3], rewarded Abd al-Qadir Badauni with gold coins who soak his Islamic beard in Hindu infide…

Nations are usually built on lies. Most countries would likely fall apart if they were completely truthful about their histories. In India's case, the whitewashing of Mughal rule was a necessity because there are still a substantial number of Muslims living in India, and painting their ancestors - the Mughals - as barbaric invaders would likely lead to violence (especially when seen in the context of the Partition vi…

> a substantial number of Muslims living in India, and painting their ancestors - the Mughals - as barbaric invaders.

I'd like a source for Mughal ancestry of Muslims. It looks like you're passing of opinion as facts here.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#60

Post by drieddust »

srean wrote: post #36
puranjay wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nations are usually built on lies. Most countries would likely fall apart if they were completely truthful about their histories. In India's case, the whitewashing of Mughal rule was a necessity because there are still a substantial number of Muslims living in India, and painting their ancestors - the Mughals - as barbaric invaders would likely lead to violence (especially when seen in the context of the Partition vi…

Your point is very well taken. Empire making and keeping is inherently violent, but the current trend seems to be trying to make the case that Hindu emperors achieved what they achieved with peace, rainbows and divine fairness (and some old Hindu science of flying machines, plastic surgery between humans and elephant heads. All lost because of outside invasion). Pushing this point of view has been the national agenda…

There is various degrees of violence. In Indian context Kings fought each other to grab kingdoms but that did not translate into general massacre of public for their religious beliefs until Islam arrived.Of course this comes from my little knowledge of Indian History so I will be happy to learn more.

> some old Hindu science of flying machines, plastic surgery between humans and elephant heads. All lost because of outside invasion).

I do not subscribe to this nationalistic view. But then a lot of knowledge from India did get appropriated and lost. Take the example of Fibonacci series. Europe didn't adopt decimal numerals until 16th century and yet Fibonacci was able to invent his series?? No, he himself wrote I learned this from Indian and I am merely translating it. Yet it's called Fibonacci series with no attribution to its origin.[1]

Nalanda reportedly had 10k students, 2000 teachers, and 9 million books. When Khilji destroyed it, library burned for 3 months as reported by the historian of the destroyer himself so saying nothing was lost is just not real.[2]

[1] Liber Abaci

[2] Tabaqat-i Nasiri - Minhaj-i-Siraj

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