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How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

dailytimes.com.pk

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Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#31

I feel for the rather confused and well meaning non-subcontinent related people who have waded into a culture war. In South Asia - especially India — the moghuls are a loaded topic at the moment. There is an extreme right wing government that is focused on a Hindu resurgence (fine) at the expense of non Hindus (not fine), and the central justification is look how badly we were treated in the past. All the moghuls hav…

Indeed. This thread is going to be a playground for the shills trying to push the narrative that Hindu's were a pristine white snowflake who did no one any wrong but were subject to the worst miseries.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#32

Mughals were neither about art nor science nor they were tolerant. Post partition and independence India had 5 education ministers who were hardcore Islamist and sympathizer of Pakistan. They have created this aura around Mughal tolerance.

> Post partition and independence India had 5 education ministers who were hardcore Islamist and sympathizer of Pakistan.

That sounds like a political opinion that has an axe to grind.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#34
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His creation of his own religion might be the reason that tensions still exist in that region or maybe its just people. Interestingly, he was a brilliant commander even though people call him illiterate, he preferred his own way of studying which meant understanding topics at his own pace instead of cramming. Just shows us how only education has nothing to do with being tolerant or being brilliant.

Tensions mostly exist in the region because of colonialism and the poorly-managed independence of India and subsequently of Pakistan. If, nonetheless, you wanted to pin the blame for modern religious issues in South Asia on a Mughal, it would probably be Aurangzeb, Akbar’s great-grandson, who was definitely not tolerant. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurangzeb

The British did not create the tensions between Muslims and Hindus in the Indian subcontinent. They papered over them for a long time but the big question of who’s going to be in charge once they left was not one they were in a position to dictate the answer to.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/03/01/the-blood-on-brown...

> Since I am not Pakistani I did not know what the “Two-Nation Theory” (TNT) was before I ran the Brown Pundits weblog. Basically, this is the idea that the Indian subcontinent has within it two religious nations, the Hindu and Muslim. This is not a theological assertion as much as an ethno-sectarian one. The founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, was not a devout Muslim. His personal mores were more that of an upper-class Brit (he enjoyed his whiskey). But, his ethnocultural identity was clearly that of an upper-class Muslim. As a lawyer, he defended a man who killed a Hindu who the man believed had blasphemed against Islam. Jinnah’s defense was motivated by his communal loyalty. Even if he himself was not pious, the offense was against the Muslim nation, and he stood with the Muslim nation.

...

> If you had asked me at a younger age my unconsidered opinion would have been that India should have stayed united to avert the bloodiness of the partition, whose death toll is estimated from the hundreds of thousands to millions. But upon further reflection and thought, I think the TNT captures the essential fact that the Muslim upper-class of Northern India would never be able to reconcile itself well with secondary status within the state, and, with ~25% of the population being Muslim, would always have a huge vote bank so that they could not be ignored. Perhaps a confessional state with a divided balance of power such as Lebanon could have been attempted, but I doubt the Lebanese solution would scale to a polity which covered the whole Indian subcontinent. A more feasible scenario might be a confederation.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#35
post #16

Akbar was one of the more interesting monarchs in human history. He was quite tolerant for the time, so much so that he created his own syncretic religion that aimed to soothe tensions among his subjects.[1] He also had an official biography written, the Akbarnama , [2] which is a pretty fascinating look behind the throne of Mughal India. It includes chapters on the imperial kitchen, coins used in the empire, army en…

Despite the hype, Akbar was not tolerant at all. Like most Muslim kings in India, he was heavy-handed towards Hindus but was also towards Shia Muslim [1]. He ordered numerous massacre of Hindus (e.g. massacre in Garha in 1560 AD[2], order to weight Janeu - a cotton thread worn by hindus - of killed Hindus which weighed 200kg [3], rewarded Abd al-Qadir Badauni with gold coins who soak his Islamic beard in Hindu infide…

Nations are usually built on lies. Most countries would likely fall apart if they were completely truthful about their histories.

In India's case, the whitewashing of Mughal rule was a necessity because there are still a substantial number of Muslims living in India, and painting their ancestors - the Mughals - as barbaric invaders would likely lead to violence (especially when seen in the context of the Partition violence).

At this point, India has to confront a hard question: does it continue believing the old lies, or does it accept the harsher reality? If we go with the latter, can you be confident that the country will survive in its present form?

I'm not sure of the answer. The mature position would be to understand that the violence and religious persecution happened, but since that's in the past, we can't really change anything about it. Punishing the present does not undo the sins of the ancestors.

But I'm not convinced that most people will take the mature position.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#36
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the hype, Akbar was not tolerant at all. Like most Muslim kings in India, he was heavy-handed towards Hindus but was also towards Shia Muslim [1]. He ordered numerous massacre of Hindus (e.g. massacre in Garha in 1560 AD[2], order to weight Janeu - a cotton thread worn by hindus - of killed Hindus which weighed 200kg [3], rewarded Abd al-Qadir Badauni with gold coins who soak his Islamic beard in Hindu infide…

Nations are usually built on lies. Most countries would likely fall apart if they were completely truthful about their histories. In India's case, the whitewashing of Mughal rule was a necessity because there are still a substantial number of Muslims living in India, and painting their ancestors - the Mughals - as barbaric invaders would likely lead to violence (especially when seen in the context of the Partition vi…

Your point is very well taken.

Empire making and keeping is inherently violent, but the current trend seems to be trying to make the case that Hindu emperors achieved what they achieved with peace, rainbows and divine fairness (and some old Hindu science of flying machines, plastic surgery between humans and elephant heads. All lost because of outside invasion). Pushing this point of view has been the national agenda in the current political situation.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edits: - Replacing links with original source material. I included tweets because I would like to attribute the credit to people who I learned from. - Removing line about Wikipedia's Left and Islam leanings. I will present more details argument later on. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source when it comes to history. Even for his time he wasn't tolerant. Let me narrate 2 stories from the same period. When Akbar took over…

> Wikipedia isn't a reliable source anymore. They seems to have become a Islamist and left propaganda machine I do think that needs some stronger sourcing. It is one thing to argue that certain wiki articles have some bias or the other, but a categorical claim that it is an Islamist and left propaganda machine seems rather bizarre at first cut. At the moment these claims seem to be supported by some random tweets?

> > Wikipedia isn't a reliable source anymore. They seems to have become a Islamist and left propaganda machine

> I do think that needs some stronger sourcing.

Academic study, showing leftist bias: https://hbr.org/2014/12/wikipedia-is-more-biased-than-britan...

> Greenstein and Zhu borrowed this taxonomy of partisan terms and counted their use in pairs of Wikipedia and Britannica articles on the same subject. They calculated bias as the absolute difference between the number of Democratic terms and the number of Republican ones. For example, if an article contained 10 terms associated with Democrats and only three associated with Republicans, its bias score would be seven.

> They found that Wikipedia is significantly more biased than Britannica by this measure, and a bit more left-leaning.

And a co-founder’s perspective: https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/

> Wikipedia’s “NPOV” is dead.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#38
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the hype, Akbar was not tolerant at all. Like most Muslim kings in India, he was heavy-handed towards Hindus but was also towards Shia Muslim [1]. He ordered numerous massacre of Hindus (e.g. massacre in Garha in 1560 AD[2], order to weight Janeu - a cotton thread worn by hindus - of killed Hindus which weighed 200kg [3], rewarded Abd al-Qadir Badauni with gold coins who soak his Islamic beard in Hindu infide…

Nations are usually built on lies. Most countries would likely fall apart if they were completely truthful about their histories. In India's case, the whitewashing of Mughal rule was a necessity because there are still a substantial number of Muslims living in India, and painting their ancestors - the Mughals - as barbaric invaders would likely lead to violence (especially when seen in the context of the Partition vi…

Thanks for your comment.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tensions mostly exist in the region because of colonialism and the poorly-managed independence of India and subsequently of Pakistan. If, nonetheless, you wanted to pin the blame for modern religious issues in South Asia on a Mughal, it would probably be Aurangzeb, Akbar’s great-grandson, who was definitely not tolerant. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurangzeb

The British did not create the tensions between Muslims and Hindus in the Indian subcontinent. They papered over them for a long time but the big question of who’s going to be in charge once they left was not one they were in a position to dictate the answer to. https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/03/01/the-blood-on-brown... > Since I am not Pakistani I did not know what the “Two-Nation Theory” (TNT) was before I ran…

> The British did not create the tensions between Muslims and Hindus in the Indian subcontinent.

You will have a hard time justifying that.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#40
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nations are usually built on lies. Most countries would likely fall apart if they were completely truthful about their histories. In India's case, the whitewashing of Mughal rule was a necessity because there are still a substantial number of Muslims living in India, and painting their ancestors - the Mughals - as barbaric invaders would likely lead to violence (especially when seen in the context of the Partition vi…

Your point is very well taken. Empire making and keeping is inherently violent, but the current trend seems to be trying to make the case that Hindu emperors achieved what they achieved with peace, rainbows and divine fairness (and some old Hindu science of flying machines, plastic surgery between humans and elephant heads. All lost because of outside invasion). Pushing this point of view has been the national agenda…

If nothing else, it's a gross oversimplification of history - a basic "us vs them" narration. When in reality, alliances were driven more by political necessity than by religion. There were Hindu generals in Mughal armies, just as there were Muslim commanders in the Maratha armies.

If you trace the Mughal family tree, you'll also find that someone like Shah Jahan was 75% Indian by blood (Hindu Rajput grandmom, Hindu Rajput mom). Make of that what you will.

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