How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#21

Post by drieddust » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #17

thrweroi34234 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop gaslighting. Neither the Islamic colonization nor the Anglo-Saxon one nor the Christian one (by Portugal etc.) was ever a 'benign' entity. White guilt over the brutalities of their ancestors does not automatically render the previous mass-murderers any better. The scores of destroyed temples/shrines/statues all over the Indian sub-continent, and the utter lack of any ancient ones in the North of India should be…

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand your comment. Certainly history has been filled with violent conquest, but the question was about contemporary religious tensions in South Asia, most of which are traceable to British colonialism and the breakup of India and Pakistan. But yes, religious tensions have existed between peoples for millennia. I am actually working on a startup to help alleviate this problem, so it…

Wrong, India survived because Hindus fought very hard. Entire Arabia, Iraq, and Persia fell within 30 years. Yet Islam couldn't reach even central India until 13th century not because invaders were tolerant. It was because they met resistance. Read [1] and watch [2]

[1]https://archive.org/details/HeroicHinduResistanceToMuslimInv...

[2] https://youtu.be/9HfPzUr-IKw

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#22

Post by shadowfox » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

drieddust wrote: post #19

keiferski wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I said tolerant for the time. His entire Wikipedia article indicates a pretty serious commitment to pluralism and tolerance, especially compared to his contemporaries (and even his descendents.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbar#Religious_policy

Edits: - Replacing links with original source material. I included tweets because I would like to attribute the credit to people who I learned from. - Removing line about Wikipedia's Left and Islam leanings. I will present more details argument later on. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source when it comes to history. Even for his time he wasn't tolerant. Let me narrate 2 stories from the same period. When Akbar took over…

> Wikipedia isn't a reliable source anymore. They seems to have become a Islamist and left propaganda machine

I do think that needs some stronger sourcing. It is one thing to argue that certain wiki articles have some bias or the other, but a categorical claim that it is an Islamist and left propaganda machine seems rather bizarre at first cut.

At the moment these claims seem to be supported by some random tweets?

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#23

Post by nefitty » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 2:35 PM UTC

n_t wrote: post #16

keiferski wrote: post #2

Akbar was one of the more interesting monarchs in human history. He was quite tolerant for the time, so much so that he created his own syncretic religion that aimed to soothe tensions among his subjects.[1] He also had an official biography written, the Akbarnama , [2] which is a pretty fascinating look behind the throne of Mughal India. It includes chapters on the imperial kitchen, coins used in the empire, army en…

Despite the hype, Akbar was not tolerant at all. Like most Muslim kings in India, he was heavy-handed towards Hindus but was also towards Shia Muslim [1]. He ordered numerous massacre of Hindus (e.g. massacre in Garha in 1560 AD[2], order to weight Janeu - a cotton thread worn by hindus - of killed Hindus which weighed 200kg [3], rewarded Abd al-Qadir Badauni with gold coins who soak his Islamic beard in Hindu infide…

> AFAICT, India is only country which portrays its invaders and looters as heroes.

The US still widely observes Columbus Day, despite it being a celebration of, “...the greatest waves of genocide of the American Indians known in history.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Day#Opposition_to_Col...

I’m sure there are many other countries with similarly strained relationships to their “heroes”.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#24

Post by keiferski » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 2:36 PM UTC

drieddust wrote: post #19

keiferski wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I said tolerant for the time. His entire Wikipedia article indicates a pretty serious commitment to pluralism and tolerance, especially compared to his contemporaries (and even his descendents.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbar#Religious_policy

Edits: - Replacing links with original source material. I included tweets because I would like to attribute the credit to people who I learned from. - Removing line about Wikipedia's Left and Islam leanings. I will present more details argument later on. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source when it comes to history. Even for his time he wasn't tolerant. Let me narrate 2 stories from the same period. When Akbar took over…

I'm always open to discussion, but if you're going to present a counter-narrative, you'll need stronger sources than some random tweets.

And, as I have said a few times now: he was tolerant for the times. Virtually every political leader in the history of the world has committed things that today, we'd consider crimes against humanity. That shouldn't stop us from finding some light in a sea of darkness. Otherwise, the holier-than-thou spiral has no end.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#25

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 2:45 PM UTC

shadowfox wrote: post #22

drieddust wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edits: - Replacing links with original source material. I included tweets because I would like to attribute the credit to people who I learned from. - Removing line about Wikipedia's Left and Islam leanings. I will present more details argument later on. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source when it comes to history. Even for his time he wasn't tolerant. Let me narrate 2 stories from the same period. When Akbar took over…

> Wikipedia isn't a reliable source anymore. They seems to have become a Islamist and left propaganda machine I do think that needs some stronger sourcing. It is one thing to argue that certain wiki articles have some bias or the other, but a categorical claim that it is an Islamist and left propaganda machine seems rather bizarre at first cut. At the moment these claims seem to be supported by some random tweets?

[deleted]

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#26

Post by drieddust » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 2:46 PM UTC

shadowfox wrote: post #22

drieddust wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edits: - Replacing links with original source material. I included tweets because I would like to attribute the credit to people who I learned from. - Removing line about Wikipedia's Left and Islam leanings. I will present more details argument later on. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source when it comes to history. Even for his time he wasn't tolerant. Let me narrate 2 stories from the same period. When Akbar took over…

> Wikipedia isn't a reliable source anymore. They seems to have become a Islamist and left propaganda machine I do think that needs some stronger sourcing. It is one thing to argue that certain wiki articles have some bias or the other, but a categorical claim that it is an Islamist and left propaganda machine seems rather bizarre at first cut. At the moment these claims seem to be supported by some random tweets?

Did you look at the details in those tweets? They further refer to original source material.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#27

Post by drieddust » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #24

drieddust wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edits: - Replacing links with original source material. I included tweets because I would like to attribute the credit to people who I learned from. - Removing line about Wikipedia's Left and Islam leanings. I will present more details argument later on. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source when it comes to history. Even for his time he wasn't tolerant. Let me narrate 2 stories from the same period. When Akbar took over…

I'm always open to discussion, but if you're going to present a counter-narrative, you'll need stronger sources than some random tweets. And, as I have said a few times now: he was tolerant for the times. Virtually every political leader in the history of the world has committed things that today, we'd consider crimes against humanity. That shouldn't stop us from finding some light in a sea of darkness. Otherwise, th…

You can independently google story of Rahim. You don't need me for that.

Sacking of Chittod and subsequent killing of all the population is recorded in Akbar Nama by his own historians.

I am surprised you are running a startup in this domain and you don't know these trivias from Indian history.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#28

Post by pritambarhate » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 2:51 PM UTC

shadowfox wrote: post #22

drieddust wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edits: - Replacing links with original source material. I included tweets because I would like to attribute the credit to people who I learned from. - Removing line about Wikipedia's Left and Islam leanings. I will present more details argument later on. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source when it comes to history. Even for his time he wasn't tolerant. Let me narrate 2 stories from the same period. When Akbar took over…

> Wikipedia isn't a reliable source anymore. They seems to have become a Islamist and left propaganda machine I do think that needs some stronger sourcing. It is one thing to argue that certain wiki articles have some bias or the other, but a categorical claim that it is an Islamist and left propaganda machine seems rather bizarre at first cut. At the moment these claims seem to be supported by some random tweets?

Wikipedia article for Siege of Chittorgarh (1567–1568)[1] to quote:

>> Rising pillars of smoke soon signalled the rite of jauhar as the Rajputs killed their families and prepared to die in a supreme sacrifice. In a day filled with hand-to-hand struggles until virtually all the defenders died. The Mughal troops slaughtered another 20-25,000 ordinary persons, inhabitants of the town and peasants from the surrounding area on the grounds that they had actively helped in the resistance.

— John F. Richards, The Mughal Empire[8]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Chittorgarh_(1567%E2%....

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#29

Post by srean » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

drieddust wrote: post #19

keiferski wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I said tolerant for the time. His entire Wikipedia article indicates a pretty serious commitment to pluralism and tolerance, especially compared to his contemporaries (and even his descendents.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbar#Religious_policy

Edits: - Replacing links with original source material. I included tweets because I would like to attribute the credit to people who I learned from. - Removing line about Wikipedia's Left and Islam leanings. I will present more details argument later on. Wikipedia isn't a reliable source when it comes to history. Even for his time he wasn't tolerant. Let me narrate 2 stories from the same period. When Akbar took over…

Given Kieferski's qualification "tolerant the times" I dont see that he is egregiously wrong. Emperor Ashoka who is considered kindness personified had Kalinga butchered among other places -- till his empire was big enough that more campaigns and conquests were unnecessary. At that point he turned the peaceful Buddhist.

Re: How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)

#30

Post by projectramo » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 3:03 PM UTC

I feel for the rather confused and well meaning non-subcontinent related people who have waded into a culture war.

In South Asia - especially India — the moghuls are a loaded topic at the moment. There is an extreme right wing government that is focused on a Hindu resurgence (fine) at the expense of non Hindus (not fine), and the central justification is look how badly we were treated in the past. All the moghuls have gone through a lot of revisionism and reassessment (also fine) but it’s all politically motivated to interpret current events (sad).