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Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

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Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#121

Post by SlipperySlope »

chernevik wrote: post #94
jasonwilk wrote: post #28

I have been playing golf since I was 6 years old (I am now 25, running a YC company and whiteyboard). I've played competitively, going all over the country and even got a full scholarship to a NCAA Division 1 university for the sport. I can honestly say that this guy does not stand a chance, and here is why. 1. Golf, especially when it comes to playing professionally, is more of a mental sport than physical (both str…

I'm not sure it will work. I expect golf rewards basic aptitudes like co-ordination, strength and stamina, etc., and that pros' endowments on these are four or five standard deviations from the population norm. They were likely selected for those endowments prior to most of their practice. Where is Dan on that curve? But I suppose how much these endowments matter, or whether work can enhance them, is a rough part of…

"[Pros] were likely selected for those endowments prior to most of their practice."

That is exactly the point of the 10,000 hour practice - to provide a documented counterexample to that point of view, in accordance with recent theory on expertise training.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#122

Post by axefrog »

dfan wrote: post #92
axefrog wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds reasonable, but what about the fact that there are a great many more pursuits in life that one might enjoy, but simply hasn't had enough time to investigate, or simply has not yet been exposed to sufficiently to recognise the enjoyment that comes from pursuing it?

Well, there is a pretty large difference between enjoying something and dedicating a giant chunk of your life to it. But in any case, I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying why it's unlikely.

I'm just saying that in life there are so many hours in each day and we tend to gravitate towards not just what we enjoy, but what we are more competent at (and thus more confident and comfortable with), which means whatever interest gains early traction is likely to take over at the expense of the other interests we may have otherwise focussed on.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#123

Post by jpwagner »

hugh3 wrote: post #49
jpwagner wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not a golfer?

If you're implying that age and genetics do play a big role you're right, but what other "proper" sport is comparable? Most sports nowadays are dominated by folks who are clearly genetic freaks.

so because you cannot "see" the genetic advantages and it's not a "proper" sport, the original comment is not ridiculous?

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#124

Post by jacques_chester »

unreal37 wrote: post #74
[deleted] wrote: post #69

[deleted]

If you read the book "Talent is Overrated", the theory being put forth alongside "10,000 hours to master something" is there is no such thing as natural talent. Every baby has the same talents at birth. Tiger Woods was not born great. His father had him swinging a golf club from before he could walk.

In many sports physical characteristics matter because they set the ultimate limits to performance.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#125

Post by hartror »

I think the key here could be this:

> "He had almost no experience and even less interest in the sport."

How can someone truly excel in a vocation they don't love. Without that love is his practice going to be effective compared to that of someone who loves golf and wants to submerge themselves in it every waking hour?

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#126

Post by scott_s »

orangecat wrote: post #117
scott_s wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but whether you're in the top 5% or the top 0.001% depends on which activity you've chosen (plus your natural talent in that field). I would be fine with that result. My objection is when people say "I'm just not good at X ," when what they really mean is "I'm not as good at X as I think I should be, that frustrates me, and I lack the motivation to continue trying." If we can demonstrate that with enough practice, an…

If we can demonstrate that with enough practice, anyone can get good at anything (with a large delta of good), then I think that's meaningful. I'd agree with that, which is a very different claim than "there's no such thing as innate talent". I've talked to other CS majors who think that most people just don't have the right "mind" for programming I'd also agree with that, and I don't think it's contradictory. Have y…

I think that initial aptitude at a task is not a good predictor for how well you can do after doing it for a decade. It is a good predictor for likelihood at actually pursuing it for a decade, because it often determines whether or not you like the activity.

Put another way, people become good at things that they like because they keep doing them. We get positive reinforcement. But I don't think there are a class of people who have the "mind" for programming.

Also note that by bring up Dennis Ritchie, you've now introduced the "what does it take to be a genius" discussion, which is different from achieving expert status.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#127

Post by scott_s »

hartror wrote: post #125

I think the key here could be this: > "He had almost no experience and even less interest in the sport ." How can someone truly excel in a vocation they don't love. Without that love is his practice going to be effective compared to that of someone who loves golf and wants to submerge themselves in it every waking hour?

Read his current blog. He loves it now.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#128

Post by nl »

chernevik wrote: post #94
jasonwilk wrote: post #28

I have been playing golf since I was 6 years old (I am now 25, running a YC company and whiteyboard). I've played competitively, going all over the country and even got a full scholarship to a NCAA Division 1 university for the sport. I can honestly say that this guy does not stand a chance, and here is why. 1. Golf, especially when it comes to playing professionally, is more of a mental sport than physical (both str…

I'm not sure it will work. I expect golf rewards basic aptitudes like co-ordination, strength and stamina, etc., and that pros' endowments on these are four or five standard deviations from the population norm. They were likely selected for those endowments prior to most of their practice. Where is Dan on that curve? But I suppose how much these endowments matter, or whether work can enhance them, is a rough part of…

I'm not sure it will work. I expect golf rewards basic aptitudes like co-ordination, strength and stamina, etc., and that pros' endowments on these are four or five standard deviations from the population norm.

In golf (unlike most pro sports) it isn't immediately obvious that this is the case. Sure, most golfers are in shape, but few aerobically fitter than a recreational 10K runner, and the variation in max drive length between successful pros shows that strength is pretty variable too.

As an extreme example there are players like John Daly, who is overweight, smokes and is a double major winner.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#129

Post by ahlatimer »

scott_s wrote: post #65
hugh3 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly he's very good, but there's still a huge gulf between him and the best marathon runners. And that's why this ten thousand hours thing is pretty random, yet pretty unfalsifiable. In any specialised activity, the first hundred hours of dedicated practice is good enough to make you better than most people. Keep practicing and you'll be better than 80% of the world. Keep it up for a bunch more time and you'll b…

but whether you're in the top 5% or the top 0.001% depends on which activity you've chosen (plus your natural talent in that field). I would be fine with that result. My objection is when people say "I'm just not good at X ," when what they really mean is "I'm not as good at X as I think I should be, that frustrates me, and I lack the motivation to continue trying." If we can demonstrate that with enough practice, an…

Well, you probably wouldn't ever get in the top 5% of marathon runners if you didn't have legs [1]. I'd argue that it's similar for something like programming. I think you'll find that some people lack the mental acuity or analytical reasoning skills to be in the top 5% of programmers. Those skills can be taught to a certain extent, I suppose, but I don't doubt you'll find people that would plateau well before breaking into "expert" territory. You'd likely find the same for someone trying to reach that point in golf or any other number of skills.

Do most people lack those necessary skills? I'm not really sure.

[1]: For the purpose of the argument, ignore prosthetics. AFAIK, there isn't anything similar to prosthetics for someone that lacks certain necessary abilities to be an "expert" programmer.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#130

Post by chegra »

jasonwilk wrote: post #28

I have been playing golf since I was 6 years old (I am now 25, running a YC company and whiteyboard). I've played competitively, going all over the country and even got a full scholarship to a NCAA Division 1 university for the sport. I can honestly say that this guy does not stand a chance, and here is why. 1. Golf, especially when it comes to playing professionally, is more of a mental sport than physical (both str…

I see an opportunity for taking a friendly bet here. :) Instead of debating, you guys should make bets and wait.
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