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Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

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Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#81
It Depends....

I have a friend who can do anything with a golfball. He is literally amazing. As an amateur he was one of the very best, but he freely admits he cannot succeed as a golfer because he just does not have the right mental makeup.

He will sink 6 foot putts all day in practice but ask him to sink a six footer with a tournament at stake and he just cannot do it reliably.

Being great at something is often not just about skill or love of the activity but also you "gotta have the right stuff"

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#82

I have been playing golf since I was 6 years old (I am now 25, running a YC company and whiteyboard). I've played competitively, going all over the country and even got a full scholarship to a NCAA Division 1 university for the sport. I can honestly say that this guy does not stand a chance, and here is why. 1. Golf, especially when it comes to playing professionally, is more of a mental sport than physical (both str…

Jason, Your insightful comments fully illustrate the 10,000 hour expertise challenge. I speculate that each of the issues you mention can be addressed by comprehensive coaching and incremental practice. Dan had no bad golf habits to break and has been coached from the very first stroke. Suppose Dan can be coached not to lose his temper? Suppose Dan can be coached to recover mentally from a poor shot? Furthermore, wit…

I suspect Jason has allowed pride to inflate himself somewhat. He probably has come to feel that things like the 'mental game' of golf is an innate ability he posses and others do not, rather than something he has come to earn.

This is not an insult, especially as he had to earn it to even have it; it is a folly I find myself making often as well. Once you have beat something into yourself so thoroughly it feels like second nature, even you begin to suspect maybe it really was second nature after all.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#83
I would believe it were he 20. However, most golfers start fading in their thirties, having lost the extra power that their bodies could provide when younger. While I don't doubt that he will be an excellent golfer (thus "proving" that 10,000 hours of dedicated practice will indeed make you great) I certainly doubt he will be a PGA golfer.

That said, he might have a chance for a lesser tour. And that, for sure, will lead him to his true goal: motivational speaking! (Oh... come on, like it isn't obvious...)

I've certainly thought about doing similar, outrageous things. It seems to be a current pattern: do something seemingly outrageous and interesting, write about it, derive income.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#84
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you not find it an intellectually curious topic?

Without trying to be condescending, no. I am not a golf fan, and I already know that practice makes perfect. If I were to devote 10000 hours of my life in something it would be more "cerebral" than a motor skill/sport. Just my point of view. For example: if this guy decided to devote 10000 hours to make a machine that would connect and download golf into his brain, now that would be cool.

Certainly practice approches perfect. The interesting part here is to quantify the practice to perfection radio in the context of the well known 10,000hr rule. Golf works well for this since it's fairly objective at the individual level.

I'm not interested in golf, but I found it interesting to read through the article and see I thought his use of golf as a skill had some merit, but also where I think he's a bit off. Regardless of the outcome, I hope he follows through and documents well.

That said, I definitely pick up what you're putting down on the 'cerebral' aspect.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#85
post #81

It Depends.... I have a friend who can do anything with a golfball. He is literally amazing. As an amateur he was one of the very best, but he freely admits he cannot succeed as a golfer because he just does not have the right mental makeup. He will sink 6 foot putts all day in practice but ask him to sink a six footer with a tournament at stake and he just cannot do it reliably. Being great at something is often not…

Yeah, but you're just drawing the line between "result of effort" and "inner nature" in a different place.

What if you decided to test the hypothesis that it was inner nature which allowed you to deal with tournament stakes? What if that was learnable after all? Maybe the top performers just had a different set of experiences, one that allows them to be more detached.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#86
post #15

To me there's a sort of a Bayesian logic working against any hypothetical "adult novice puts in 10,000 hours of work and becomes a pro" story, which is that anyone who has the willpower and passion to put in that much work probably has already. If you are so excited about a sport/instrument/game/hobby that you're willing to put 10,000 hours into it starting from scratch, why weren't you working on it before? I recent…

Sounds reasonable, but what about the fact that there are a great many more pursuits in life that one might enjoy, but simply hasn't had enough time to investigate, or simply has not yet been exposed to sufficiently to recognise the enjoyment that comes from pursuing it?

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#87

Six hours a day, six days a week, for six years? Golf can take it's toll on the wrists, forearms, shoulders, lower back, and knees. I predict he'll give up due to overuse injuries long before he reaches 10,000 hours.

If you read Dan's blog, you'll see that he has a physical therapist coaching him. His team of advisors have a good plan and it seems to me that avoiding injury is a big part of that plan. For example, Dan currently is not using any big clubs - the largest a chipping wedge. If his spends most of his practice time near the green how is going to injure his shoulders, lower back or knees?

In a recent blog post Dan mentions that his physical therapist will prescribe a certain weight lifting program to strengthen his muscles enough to achieve the driver head speed that his golf coach plans that he should achieve.

I suppose that today's golf pros, those actually on the tour, have each put in those thousands and thousands of hours of practice, regardless of whatever athletic gifts they received at birth. So are injuries the reason most near-pros never make the tour? That would be the case if your point is true. I think that they don't make the tour because it is simply too much effort and dedication to put in all those hours of practice.

And that's the wonderful thing about Dan's challenge. If valid, it means that any of us may achieve outstanding results if we put in the hours required to gain the expertise. Golf, in this regard, is a model for any skill we need to satisfy our aspirations.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#88
post #15

To me there's a sort of a Bayesian logic working against any hypothetical "adult novice puts in 10,000 hours of work and becomes a pro" story, which is that anyone who has the willpower and passion to put in that much work probably has already. If you are so excited about a sport/instrument/game/hobby that you're willing to put 10,000 hours into it starting from scratch, why weren't you working on it before? I recent…

Ah, but for Dan it's not just a golf thing, it's a dedicated practice thing as well. Whereas before he had tried things as experiments and (at least in the field of commercial photography) become competent, this time the measures of success include not just acquired skill but also the duration of focused practice.

As his family and advisors reported in the article, this isn't just different from what he's done before, it's different from what most (all?) people have done before.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#89
post #56

I have been playing golf since I was 6 years old (I am now 25, running a YC company and whiteyboard). I've played competitively, going all over the country and even got a full scholarship to a NCAA Division 1 university for the sport. I can honestly say that this guy does not stand a chance, and here is why. 1. Golf, especially when it comes to playing professionally, is more of a mental sport than physical (both str…

Isn't the 10,000 hour most commonly applied to things like playing the violin? I haven't seen many cases of it being applied to coding, nor language learning, in the academic papers I've read anyway... I can recommend reading "The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance", it paints a clear pictures of what Expertise actually is.

I can recommend reading "The Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance

I upvoted your comment to agree with your recommendation of the definitive book on the subject.

http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Expertise-Performance-Handbo...

To answer the question you pose above about other domains, I have not seen language learning reported in the expert performance literature, but I was a language learner (native speaker of English who was studying Chinese) who perhaps arguably did reach expert level in my acquired language (I passed testing to be a contract Chinese-English interpreter for the United States federal government). It took perhaps 10,000 learning contact hours (many of those hours during a three-year stay overseas after completing my undergraduate degree in Chinese) to reach that level of language proficiency, which was confirmed by other tests. I also had excellent instruction in Chinese with some of the best materials then avaiable, and a lot of supportive help from linguistics that I studied at the time. Some of my advice on language learning

http://learninfreedom.org/languagebooks.html

would probably help other learners get the most benefit per hour in their language learning situations that they can.

What I find most interesting about K. Anders Ericsson's research on expert performance is the suggestion that some domains have few or no experts, when experts are defined as persons with statistically reliably superior performance in the domain. The example I recall from one of his research papers is choosing common stocks in which to invest for sustained high returns. Some people beat the market for a while, but most stick-pickers do very little better than simply investing in a diverse basket of stocks chosen without conscious thought.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#90
post #24
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find interesting about that is that you can only pursue it if you are really committed in advance. Someone who doesn't know that they are going to stick with it has to try to learn everything at once. Since he "knows" (for some suitable value) that he's sticking with it for 10,000 hours, if the first 1,000 are spent on putting, no problem. I don't know if this is optimal, but it's interesting.

I agree, and it's also unlikely that most people would even stumble upon this approach. Most people pursue golf because they enjoy it, on some level. I assume that would involve actually playing full games of golf pretty early on. Although, now that I think about it, his approach is how we teach many academic subjects. A freshmen physics major often has no idea what it looks like to be a practicing physicist, much in…

It is how we teach traditional martial arts too.

You do a lot of kata repetitions when you learn Karate.

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