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Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

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Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#51

Post by rsecora »

codesections wrote: post #5

The post strongly recommends two different split keyboards to prevent RSI: the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 [0] and the Kinesis Advantage [1]. I'm curious how these would compare with the Keyboardio Atreus [2], which I've been considering for a while. The Atreus isn't tented, but it's also significantly smaller, which seems like something that might be helpful in reducing RSI [0]: https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft…

Keyboardio Atreus only have one shift, one control and a tiny space-key and return-key.

Some positions that need shift/control in the left hand will be forced. Keyboards use two shift/control to alleviate the stress. Traditional typewriters have both for fast typing and a balance of force with both hands. It's like a dance of fingers, using the shift with the opposite hand to the key being typed.

On top of that, there is a small "space key", in the right. Being space one of the most pressed keys,it put too much stress on that. traditional keyboards have a large space-key to help the hand position and press with the opposite hand to last key typed.

In an ergonomic keyboard the hand and forearm shall be aligned (that's done), but the keys shall help.

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#52

Post by tzs »

rsecora wrote: post #23

My two cents on the RSI and fast typing. I learned typing 40 years ago, in the same way as secretaries do, with a real mechanical typewriter (an Olivetti one), and following an standard typewriter course for 2 months. My parents and relatives also used mechanical typewriters for 20 years before (8 hours a day). The writer says "CapsLock is useless... remap". I have seen that statement a lot of times, and I deeply fee…

Caps lock is not useless, but its placement is totally inappropriate, and this has nothing to do with how trained you are.

In English text, and most programming languages, most of the text is in one case (usually lower), with small runs (often only one character long) in the other case.

For runs of one case switched character, shift will almost always beat caps lock because of the need to hit caps lock again to get back to the majority case.

Only when you get a longer run of switched case, or perhaps a shorter run where the letters nearly alternate between left hand and right hand letters so you are alternating shift keys or doing some characters with the "wrong" shift key if you are not good at alternating, do you change caps lock state.

For most text only a very small fraction of key presses will be to change caps lock state. Even Khassaki would only press it once. There is simply no way to justify putting it in the prime spot to the left of "A".

Also, while being in caps lock state is useful on some occasions, that does not mean that there needs to be a dedicated key to change that state. I suspect that something like pressing both shift keys simultaneously would be fine as a caps lock state toggle, or something like left shift/right shift/left shift.

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#53

Post by GrantZvolsky »

saurik wrote: post #19
GrantZvolsky wrote: post #14

I've been typing without any signs of RSI until I started using vim. Vim forced me to switch from my 'custom/natural' hand position* , which uses just 3-4 fingers of the right hand, to the home row position, which uses all five. This put too much strain on my ring finger which is much weaker than the other fingers, and that I believe led to RSI. Maybe I'm an outlier with atypical anatomy, or maybe we should challenge…

I have always used vim and I have a "custom/natural hand position" and am not at all sure how or why you are feeling the need to use all five fingers... I find vim extremely effective even on an iPhone pecking with my thumbs.

That's a good point, it was an overstatement to say I was forced to switch. The reason I did is because I naturally rest my right hand with my index finger at the gap between the i/o/9 or o/p/0 keys and the rest of the hand stretched comfortably, but all the vim tutorials I'd read suggest you should rest your hand at the home row. If I rest my hand like that, it forces me to use the touch typing technique that I diligently studied and practised at school but never found comfortable.

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#54

Post by tzs »

xwdv wrote: post #25
rsecora wrote: post #23

My two cents on the RSI and fast typing. I learned typing 40 years ago, in the same way as secretaries do, with a real mechanical typewriter (an Olivetti one), and following an standard typewriter course for 2 months. My parents and relatives also used mechanical typewriters for 20 years before (8 hours a day). The writer says "CapsLock is useless... remap". I have seen that statement a lot of times, and I deeply fee…

Remapping capslock to escape is not wrong if you’re using vim, in fact I would say it’s practically a requirement.

BTW, a lot of people don't realize this, but ESC is the same as CTRL-[. If you have a keyboard with CTRL in a good position, CTRL-[ can actually be very easy to type, requiring very little total movement.

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#55

Post by miccah »

jrib wrote: post #13
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #9

I agree with most of this, except the vim part. I use vim, dvorak and a Kinesis Advantage keyboard and have never felt that it held me back. If anything, I think it encouraged me to use more appropriate controls a available in vim. If you're moving around in vim one character at a time you're probably not getting the most out of it. I did learn dvorak before vim though, I can imagine unlearning and re-learning to be…

I agree. Yes, hjkl are no longer a single cluster in Dvorak, but jk are now on one's left hand for vertical movement and hl are on one's right. So it has that advantage. Like you pointed out though, you want to avoid overusing those keys to move around anyway. I did learn Dvorak after Vim. Yes, it meant there was a second layer of added pain. I stopped using vim for a couple of weeks altogether, learned Dvorak to the…

I also learned Dvorak after many years of vim, and relearning the muscle memory was the most frustrating part. Not much you can do but stick with it though, and eventually it gets easier.

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#56

Post by Reefersleep »

YorickPeterse wrote: post #30
Reefersleep wrote: post #26

I bought an Ergodox EZ because I wanted to try out the wonderful mechanical keyboard feedback that many blog posts talk about. The tactile feedback in particular; as I didn't want to bother my colleagues, I bought Blue Zilents from Zeal PC [1], which were a nice upgrade from the Cherry Browns - silent, regular, good tactility. I never really got what I was looking for. While the keyboard "felt nice", the extra travel…

I've been using an Ergodox for about a year now, but never noticed any latency issues of any kind. This is just using standard Cherry MX brown switches. Perhaps the issue was something else? At the end of the day I think it's a matter of taste/preference. Some like mechanical keyboards (i.e. me), others don't. That's fine, just pick whatever works for you :)

I didn't do any testing to figure out where the latency came from, but the article was pretty thorough in documenting the palpable difference between Ergodox and e.g. the Apple Magic keyboard. I managed to dig it up for you: https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/

Come to think of it, I might have incurred some latency myself with the particular layout I'd brewed; some keys had dual meanings depending on whether I held them down or not. That was a patch on the problem I had with the physical Ergodox layout lacking my Danish characters, though, so even if I'm partly to blame myself for the latency, that wouldn't have made a great difference in my overall assessment.

I agree fully; pick whatever suits you. I kind of still want a mechanical keyboard that has extreme amounts of click and clack, just because it feels so nice to type with. I just don't know which model I'd pick, and it'd be pretty expensive for something I'd only use occasionally.

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#57

Post by tzs »

> The Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 has a built in stand for negative tilt. The kinesis advantage2, however, does not. I solved this by going to a nearby plastics shop and had them build a custom stand for me which worked well.

What's it typically cost to have a custom plastic stand made?

I would have just taped a couple of dead AAA or AA batteries to the bottom, or went to an office supply store or Walmart and got something like these and stuck them to the bottom [1].

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Self-Stick-Noise-Dampening-Bumpers-12...

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#58

Post by cosmotic »

DVORAK has long been debunked. It was a fraudulent study conducted by the US navy. The transition into dvorak will slow you; the constant need to setup your key layout on new computers will slow you, the inability to use other computers quickly will slow you, the inability for others to use computers you've setup will be a problem...

https://reason.com/1996/06/01/typing-errors/

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#59

Post by daveFNbuck »

rsecora wrote: post #35
daveFNbuck wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes remapping capslock wrong? Does proper typing training make it easy to reach the escape key?

I don't say there is a silver bullet. But there is tendency on people not trained in typewriting to have RSI. And the capslock remapping is a clue of people not being trained. Maybe the training forces to have the right siting position or to remove bad positions, or the memory muscle needed to achieve more than 100 words/min, or the hand not overusing 2/3 fingers. Or the hand position... Or maybe its everything. For…

How does capslock remapping have anything to do with proper training? I remapped capslock because it had been years since I pressed it intentionally, but I use escape all the time.

Does remapping capslock mean I worked too hard to type this comment?

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