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Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

politico.com

351–360 of 493 posts

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#351
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to have a long tradition. I'm still baffled by how little punishment there was for Iran-Contra, key people were simply pardoned by Bush, or how little punishment there was for the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture, just looking at the pictures of the wikipedia article makes me want to throw up.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

>It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law.

It isn't, it's actually an integral part needed to make the entire thing work. The problem is when it isn't treated with the restraint due to the role it is meant to fulfill. The President is a short-cycle control mechanism. The legislature longer, and the judiciary the longest based on the sheer weight of precedent they need wade through.

Now, interestingly, and somewhat tangentially. There is a moral/traditional controversy over whether the President can legitimately abuse the Pardon power. There is a body of scholarship that hold that the Pardon is meant to be applied only when the President is acting to further the interests of the Nation.

To riff through some examples of how that plays out, (as mentioned elsewhere downthread): Civil War Confederate Amnesty, A-Okay. Carter and the draft-dodgers, a-okay, Clinton pardoning his brother on his last day in office? Absolutely not okay,as it wasn't furthering the interests of the country as a whole. Nor would Trump's pardoning necessarily qualify.

That isn't law though. That's ethos, and tradition.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whaaaa?! > because there's no higher authority to appeal to for enforcement. Then we do not live in a democracy with a rule of law. Why have the constitution at all? Barring weasel lawyering and issues around standing. The very idea that you would claim these violations are not punishable means that they will continue to occur. I am having a hard time fathoming how you take this stance at all.

> Then we do not live in a democracy with a rule of law. Why have the constitution at all? The concept of checks and balances is an attempt to mitigate this problem. The "higher authority" is the other branches of government. But even that only goes so far. Ultimately the entire scheme only works because individual humans agree to abide by the implicit social contract to live within the system of laws. To the extent…

You can dismantle the surveillance powers of the NSA without dismantling the whole country. If not, then those people might actually be correct.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#353
post #325

Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. Nothing they say or put forth as law will be obeyed. So why even have laws then? Then you also have top representatives from these agencies lying outright in publ…

They're spooks. This is what they're for. The constraints are at best just theatre, obviously their adversaries aren't going to obey these rules, and they know that so if they are to be effective (and if they aren't why would they exist at all?) they will also disobey these rules. The purpose of such rules in practice is to help the American public to sleep at night despite having tacitly authorised a nightmare. You…

> But as much as they enjoy bluster, Americans are afraid [...]

Are Americans really afraid? Or is it that Americans feel comfort in having the meanest dog on the block, even if that dog sometimes nips its master?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#354
post #325

Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. Nothing they say or put forth as law will be obeyed. So why even have laws then? Then you also have top representatives from these agencies lying outright in publ…

Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies.

If that were true, I think Trump would already be gone.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#355
post #325

Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. Nothing they say or put forth as law will be obeyed. So why even have laws then? Then you also have top representatives from these agencies lying outright in publ…

They are not toothless, they put them in those positions of power and do so gladly.

Remember that Snowden always said he was ready to come back to the U.S and be trialled, as long as the trial wouldn't be a secret trial. Those who created the laws for those secret trial where not the CIA or the NSA, it was politician.

The same way they made it so that it is forbidden to talk about the programs of certain agencies, even for law maker, meaning they approve programs without debate, with only a few senator knowing what the program is even about.

They created those laws, not the NSA, not the CIA, they could choose as easily to remove them. But it is too useful for them. The NSA can create a massive surveillance network that serves them without having to ever disclose it to the public.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#356
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those of us with less detailed knowledge of US history: I take it you are referring to the assassination of president John F Kennedy?

Yes. The CIA had already started circumventing the POTUS's executive authority in Eisenhower's administration with unauthorized U-2 overflights of the Soviet Union, but it was when a rogue faction within it assassinated Kennedy (with some "special" help) that the CIA became the final word on any matters of real consequence to the U.S. empire.

Assuming the CIA assassinated a president because at one point someone gave a command without being explicitly authorized from their superior is quite a leap, don't you think?

I have heard many different equally baseless conspiracy conspiracy theories about this by now, and they all have two things in common: They each conflict with the other theories and their adherents all sound utterly convinced they are right. Which tells you something about people and their theories.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> honestly any attempt to add jail time to the mix would probably have all kinds of disastrous consequences to the balance of those checks. If this governmental system is to by dynamic enough to survive, its parts need the ability to probe the boundaries as needed. That can't happen if the people who make them up are paralyzed in personal fear of being jailed for a misstep. > The framers themselves recognized that, s…

>The founders leaned very much in the direction of aristocratic... Besides Hamilton, they absolutely did not. They were just anti-direct-democratic because they were well aware of the logistical problems, and structural ills of prior democracies. There is no concept of "Nobility" in the United States. We have Civil Servants. People who as a consequence of their office, in many ways have much higher legal exposure tha…

> Besides Hamilton, they absolutely did not.

How would you define the ability to vote, as only going to select white men? Land owners of a certain acreage, looks like only 6% of the population fit that bill [1].

These people were a bit contradicting. 'All men' didn't mean all men. It meant all, white land owners. Also, to be clear, the founders and early civil servants were upper-middle-class British that moved to America to...have their stab at trying to become upper-class.

I'm not sure how you quantify (facts/evidence) your statement that "That is the exact opposite of Aristocratic". As this would be considered historic revisionism. Aristocratic might not be the most precise word (elitism goes too extreme) but it gets close enough to the vein of truth to understand my point. Selected few men, rule over the masses, by design.

> The founders actually culturally understood this believe it or not.

I wholeheartedly agree with this entire point you made here. I would go even further that the founders rigorously debated my point of govt officials accountability and they settled with the three branches as sufficient. But they intentionally left the door open for later terms to legislate/adjudicate which is again what I'm advocating for.

Great response by the way.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_voting_rights_in_t...

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if Clapper established that you could lie before US Congress without consequence, or if there are earlier instances?

If you're a baseball player [1], you'd better come clean when hauled before Congress, or the consequences will be severe. If what you do actually matters, then meh, whatever, it's all good. 1: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-baseball-clemens/clemens-...

The baseball player doesn’t have enough leverage in terms of being culpable and thus knowing enough about their crimes for which at least others could be prosecuted.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#359
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the same thing IMO. Ignoring the issue of who was allowed to vote in the 1780s, there's a reason why the House was voted on by the people and the Senate the state legislatures. They recognized then the two groups have different interests.

State Senators were still voted on by the People, and part of the vote of confidence for taking part in the State Senate was a recognition of their capability to choose who represented the State at the National level based on understanding of the State's business. To be honest, I kind of wonder whether it was better to let the State Legislature decide. Wasn't alive then though and haven't done the research.

> State Senators were still voted on by the People...I kind of wonder whether it was better to let the State Legislature decide.

It seems you don't understand the difference between how the people directly elected US Senators since 1913 versus a State Republic that was voted on.

These are two very different things. I say very because one is more Democratic and the other is more Republic. A Republic is an indirect mechanism whereas Democratic is a direct mechanism.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law..." and Congress still makes a law, what are you going to do, throw Congress in jail? That's nonsense. The only nonsense is that we haven't done exactly that. If someone in power betrays the public trust they should be punished. The punishment ought to be severe so there is no doubt about the stakes at play. > That might actually be unconstitutional ex-post-facto…

The US officially has no enemies as of yet.

If a senator woke up tomorrow and wanted to help a martian terror cell that nobody knew existed, they would still be assisting an enemy of the state. It would still be treason, and I doubt that interpretation would be a topic of debate.

There are also groups who openly consider us their enemy and take action to harm the United States, even if we don't 'officially' recognize them. Some of these groups are nation-states, others are religious groups, and others and driven by [0]other ideologies.

[0] http://www.ecjones.org/1963_Communist_Goals.pdf

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