Pardon Snowden.
Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
131–140 of 493 posts
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
What updates does the US constitution need? I think if we were to rewrite it today it would become largely the same, maybe with a footer that says “and this time we really mean it”
I'd say the Second Amendment would need to be tweaked. Our gun control laws are honestly really in breach, and I think they are very sensible pieces of legislation, so we should make everything consistent.
Why can’t a state’s militia have its own military grade weapons and vehicles? Aside from the whole Civil War incident...
I’m not going to argue if it’s a good or bad law, but as written, each state gets to regulate which residents get nothing more than a butter knife, or a nuke, and where the state keeps those things. Arms !== rifles.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#133Our society hasn't figured out how to punish organizations, whether businesses, NGOs, religious groups, or government agencies. Past a certain level, fines don't cut it—you need existential threats. We need "prison" more often for misbehaving entities; that is, a prohibition on operating for the duration of the sentence. "But what about all the people who will be unemployed?" Exactly, that's part of the incentive not…
Except in rare circumstances, "collective responsibility" is very hard to prove in the courts of law.
When a large section of a society dislikes certain thing, yes, it is possible to prosecute groups. When is this possible? Crimes against humanity is one such example. Or going after mafia or biker gangs. Otherwise, at some time or another, it is very easy to convict influential sections of a society. That's why judges, lawyers are not keen to press charges against an individual just because such an individual is part of some kind of collective responsibility.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law..." and Congress still makes a law, what are you going to do, throw Congress in jail? That's nonsense. Actually, it's nonsense to think anything to the contrary. Either our founding document matters as the backbone of our Laws or it doesn't. Your outlandish logic nullifies any power that the government may have over it's people. It nullifies the social contract.…
>> If the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law..." and Congress still makes a law, what are you going to do, throw Congress in jail? That's nonsense. > Actually, it's nonsense to think anything to the contrary. Either our founding document matters as the backbone of our Laws or it doesn't. Your outlandish logic nullifies any power that the government may have over it's people. It nullifies the social contrac…
> honestly any attempt to add jail time to the mix would probably have all kinds of disastrous consequences to the balance of those checks. If this governmental system is to by dynamic enough to survive, its parts need the ability to probe the boundaries as needed. That can't happen if the people who make them up are paralyzed in personal fear of being jailed for a misstep.
> The framers themselves recognized that, since the Constitution isn't full of threats of criminal penalties. Even impeachment is deliberately just a removal from office.
I separated the quotes to add emphasis.
The founders leaned very much in the direction of aristocratic, not all but it was the prevailing thought hence Republic instead of direct democracy.
As for the 'disastrous consequences', 'Constitution isn't full of threats', and 'impeachment is deliberately just a removal from office'.
I understand your points and they are historically accurate. One can see through the 'norm' that was created by President Ford pardoning President Nixon, that this understanding persists even in more recent history.
My words are a desire to see an amendment/law/ruling to go further in holding these leaders of our government accountable. As it's toxic to maintaining the social contract within our society, IMHO. If we are lenient on political corruption, even the foundations will crumble, IMHO.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Nitpick, the constitution isn't a founding document. There was that whole Articles of Confederation thing. Let's totally 'nitpick' because the structure that our entire government is built upon the Constitution. "The first, The Articles of Confederation, was in effect from March 1, 1781, when Maryland ratified it. The second, The Constitution, replaced the Articles when it was ratified by New Hampshire on June 21, 1…
> No one is forcing you to be a US citizen ruled by Constitution, namely after an adult legal age. Rejecting US citizenship is difficult and costly, this places it practically out of reach of most US citizens
> Rejecting US citizenship is difficult and costly
Freedom isn't free.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#136This puts scotus in a difficult position. They've generally refused to hear national security cases. Now they'll have to...
They don't have to. They can let the lower court's decision stand.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Bear in mind that the Constitution was written in a context where the governed people successfully held their government accountable at the business end of their hunting rifles. No they didn't, look up Shay's Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion as examples. The US government has never been successfully "held accountable" at gunpoint.
One terrorist at least disagreed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing#Impact_a... , and considering his arguments context ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge ) I think there was a grain of truth to his claims (though they don’t justify killing babies of course). (The Oklahoma City bombing was the biggest terrorist attack next to 9/11 and yet never discussed in any history class I’ve taken, whil…
>The Oklahoma City bombing was the biggest terrorist attack next to 9/11 and yet never discussed in any history class I’ve taken
No government sponsored curriculum is going to open the door to the very tough questions that the first two parts of that trilogy naturally raise. It's the same reason people are never taught about the Indian wars or Jim Crow south except that "they existed". If people learned about how many times the government straight up violated treaties it signed and how many times state governments intentionally used the forces at their disposal to disenfranchise blacks then people wouldn't trust the government. The career arcs of the kind of people who think these things should be learned don't tend to put them on the committees that set state curriculum.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
The views of Californian's are not universally shared throughout the country.
You do realize that California's strict gun control laws were passed by Reagan right?
You mean the Mulford Act - Prohibiting Open Carry in California?
What does that have to do with the OP? There are many states that allow Open Carry today.
The original comment stands - Californian views are not universally shared throughout the country. This is the very reason we have States in this country, each with their own government.
Trying to compel people in other states to live the way you think they should, isn't right.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#139Our society hasn't figured out how to punish organizations, whether businesses, NGOs, religious groups, or government agencies. Past a certain level, fines don't cut it—you need existential threats. We need "prison" more often for misbehaving entities; that is, a prohibition on operating for the duration of the sentence. "But what about all the people who will be unemployed?" Exactly, that's part of the incentive not…
If corporations are people, they need to face imprisonment and capital punishment, too eh? Charters can be suspended or revoked.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's no choice in a democracy but to have something like the pardon power. The reason is that we need protection also from the power of judicial branch, which is abusable like any branch with power. Not having a pardon power allows bad judges to throw anyone they don't like into jail with no recourse by anyone. In a democracy, all branches are checked by the others, and this is a necessary check on the judicial br…
Now suppose the kid who shot the people in Kenosha gets a pardon (I don't know about jurisdiction). What would be the check on presidential power in that case? I think the pardoning thing is absolutely wrong in the US form, where it is used quite often. I think it's just crazy that you can do something illegal but if you can just talk one guy into it, you are off the hook. The only case I see where it makes sense is…
The kid could always be charged on some other state-level technicality. These charges would be state-level and therefore not subject to Presidential pardon.
That said, such a limited abuse would not justify ditching the pardon power. History has shown that not having a pardon power would have been impossible - the civil war would have lasted for decades, there would have been mass charges years after Vietnam, without the option of pardon Nixon may never have resigned, etc. A lot of these aren't corner cases, but they were necessary to still have a country.
IMHO, the by far best solution is to have it in a more limited form so it requires more than one guy.