Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. Nothing they say or put forth as law will be obeyed. So why even have laws then? Then you also have top representatives from these agencies lying outright in publ…
Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
331–340 of 493 posts
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#332Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. This is by design, a design which was cemented in place on November 22, 1963. If real accountability ever comes to the intelligence agencies, it won't come from the executive or legislative branches over which they exert a lethal veto.
For those of us with less detailed knowledge of US history: I take it you are referring to the assassination of president John F Kennedy?
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#333Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is plain as day the current language in the comment is implying Obama was behind it. A clarification to that is pretty far from a nitpick.
Polarizing much? When you get to "or the CIA torturers" back up and find the verb. It's just poor sentence structure.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
Lol, of course nobody will be disciplined
Cynicism aside, I genuinely don't understand how the legal system works where an action may be found illegal - with no actual penalties despite organizations and persons having committed that action.
Then there is the issue of having had a crime committed. A charge must be clearly defined, proved by evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of the accused's peers, tried in a court with appropriate jurisdiction, and the sentence must not be deemed either cruel or unusual in nature, and they must be brought by a someone with standing. Usually an Attorney General or prosecutor, who themselves wield the power of prosecutorial nullification, or as they prefer to call it so as not to night it's sister phenomena, jury nullification, prosecutorial discretion. The official in that position iseitherelected or a political appointee, so has every reason to be highly selective in the cases that deserve their time, effort, and publicity.
Make no mistake, the halls of justice that are the courts are not by any means apolitical. To give credit where it's due, of all the branches, they are the most noteworthy for illustrating active attempts to be apolitical, but there is still much indirect political taint to be found.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#335Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law..." and Congress still makes a law, what are you going to do, throw Congress in jail? That's nonsense. Actually, it's nonsense to think anything to the contrary. Either our founding document matters as the backbone of our Laws or it doesn't. Your outlandish logic nullifies any power that the government may have over it's people. It nullifies the social contract.…
>Either our founding document matters as the backbone of our Laws or it doesn't. Nitpick, the constitution isn't a founding document. There was that whole Articles of Confederation thing. Congress isn't the final authority of if laws are constitutional or not. The courts are. Congress and the Supreme Court commonly disagree on the constitutionality of laws. What you're proposing is essentially a oligarchy lead by the…
Actually, the legislative branch is the final authority on what is Constitutional or not. Who do you think proposes, passes, organizes Constitutional Conventions, and ratifies Amendments?
It certainly isn't the Courts. Heck, judicial review isn't even enshrined in the Constitution, It just arose spontaneously out of case law; and everyone has been okay with it by and large such that there hasn't been the will to pass a "no judicial review" Amendment.
I mean, it seems silly to talk about, but it is right there. Though yes, for the last 200 year's, the Supreme Court striking down something as unconstitutional has generally been accepted as burying something six feet under politically, because no one in their right mind wants to carry the mark of "The person who changed the Constitution just to invalidate a Supreme Court decision."
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
> No regular people voted on the Constitution. Nitpick. The people who were sent as representatives from each state to help write and ratify the constitution were chosen by the people of that state. So technically, through representative democracy, the regular people did agree to the constitution because their representatives agreed on it.
Not the same thing IMO. Ignoring the issue of who was allowed to vote in the 1780s, there's a reason why the House was voted on by the people and the Senate the state legislatures. They recognized then the two groups have different interests.
To be honest, I kind of wonder whether it was better to let the State Legislature decide. Wasn't alive then though and haven't done the research.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
I find your lack of evidence unsurprising.
https://fortune.com/2018/07/05/aclu-membership-growth/ https://reason.com/2019/04/12/the-aclu-defends-the-rights-of... https://www.heritage.org/the-constitution/commentary/the-acl...
2: ACLU is not a strong proponent of individual gun ownership, according to the article this has been true for at least 30 years.
3: Article makes far reaching claim in headline but mostly focuses about a single issue, the changes to title IX. Clearly the author disagrees with the ACLU, but the article doesn't give any context on the issue. It's hard to tell if it really is an uncharacteristic position for them to take. I think the heritage foundation has hated the ACLU for a very long time, so that's consistent.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#338Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. Nothing they say or put forth as law will be obeyed. So why even have laws then? Then you also have top representatives from these agencies lying outright in publ…
The purpose of such rules in practice is to help the American public to sleep at night despite having tacitly authorised a nightmare. You know the scene in Casablance, even if you've never watched the movie - it has permeated our culture Captain Renault claims to be shocked to discover that the club is being used for gambling, undercut by a croupier giving him his winnings.
If you don't want spooks to do what spooks do, don't pass a law saying it mustn't happen, don't vote for a government that promises they'll exercise oversight over the spooks to prevent it. Just get rid of the spooks. Congress could, if the American people wanted - which they do not - abolish these agencies entirely. They'd just cease to exist and while I'm sure some small scale abuses would continue you just can't run programmes to snoop these huge volumes on pocket change, and companies would be less likely to co-operate with informal requests than with the Department of Justice.
But as much as they enjoy bluster, Americans are afraid, and so the spooks will certainly continue to be authorised and "outrages" will happen when once in a while it is revealed that the spooks are doing what spooks do but nothing actually changes. Eventually it'll get to be so routine the The Onion has a pre-built news article for it like for the mass shootings.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#339Earlier quoted context omitted.
An org is made up of people. You can't punish an org without punishing people. So you have to decide who to punish. Do you punish the entire population by removing an org that is there to protect them? Or do you punish the individuals inside and outside of the org that are responsible for making those bad decisions?
You have it backwards: the entire population is punishing the org for failing to protect them. And yes, that hurts the population a little bit, just as imprisoning individuals hurts civic society and the economy. To mangle a great line: we are entitled to rise and sleep under the blanket of the very freedom the NSA provides AND question the manner in which they provide it.
Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal
#340Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> If the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law..." and Congress still makes a law, what are you going to do, throw Congress in jail? That's nonsense. > Actually, it's nonsense to think anything to the contrary. Either our founding document matters as the backbone of our Laws or it doesn't. Your outlandish logic nullifies any power that the government may have over it's people. It nullifies the social contrac…
> honestly any attempt to add jail time to the mix would probably have all kinds of disastrous consequences to the balance of those checks. If this governmental system is to by dynamic enough to survive, its parts need the ability to probe the boundaries as needed. That can't happen if the people who make them up are paralyzed in personal fear of being jailed for a misstep. > The framers themselves recognized that, s…
Besides Hamilton, they absolutely did not. They were just anti-direct-democratic because they were well aware of the logistical problems, and structural ills of prior democracies. There is no concept of "Nobility" in the United States. We have Civil Servants. People who as a consequence of their office, in many ways have much higher legal exposure than the normal citizen. All Citizens may take any office with only mild qualifications on Age, literacy, and how one is chosen to get there.
That is the exact opposite of Aristocratic. That leaning is a much more recent thing that has emerged out of nearly half a century of political and economic consolidation through wage stagnation and technological advancement paired with a complete dismantling of top-to-bottom wealth redistribution, whether by market forces/government action notwithstanding.
>>My words are a desire to see an amendment/law/ruling to go further in holding these leaders of our government accountable. As it's toxic to maintaining the social contract within our society, IMHO. If we are lenient on political corruption, even the foundations will crumble, IMHO.
The founders actually culturally understood this believe it or not. If you look back in history, you can find numerous examples of incitement to refuse to engage in base behavior in executing the duties of office. It isn't universal, but the examples are relatively generous in frequency of having been recorded. You can also find many of the Founders personal papers and nuggets of wisdom warning that there is no greater danger to the Union than to the undermining of it's legitimacy through unwise or impulsive action or political theater.
Abraham Lincoln came to treat his responsibility to the country as something close to religious. Franklin, Washington, Hamilton, and Jefferson all realized that a State would only last as long as the people running it could comport themselves as more-than-a-person in the fulfillment of their duties to the populace, and that the populace remained United in their respect and maintenance of each other's liberties, even in the face of taking on personal risk for the preservation of their fellow man's freedom.
Lincoln himself saw litigation and to a point legislation as a fundamental breakdown. The raising of an exception, if you will, of such a magnitude that it took the body of the Nation coordinated through it's elected Government to resolve the ill so rampant that not even a town could alone fix the issue.