Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal • Hacker News Board

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#91

Post by ColanR » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #64

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What updates does the US constitution need? I think if we were to rewrite it today it would become largely the same, maybe with a footer that says “and this time we really mean it”

It's an eighteenth century document that can be maddeningly vague at times. A lot of people (on HN at least) seem to think it's a problem that the First Amendment only applies to Congress, letting companies like Google or Facebook censor speech as much as they like. The Second Amendment isn't even written in complete sentences, and we need a room full of scholars to figure out just what exactly they meant by "A well…

> stands to reason that a document as old as the Constitution should be updated more often than it has been

That constitution was based off of about 2000 years of legal and political theory stretching back at least as far as the Roman Republic, and even the Greek democracies, and written with most of the intervening political history in mind. To say that 200 years makes that much of a difference needs a lot more justification than "it stands to reason".

People say technology is a factor in why we should update the document: I would respond that the human nature which necessitated the clauses assembled in that document haven't changed. Technology has simply accelerated the negative (and positive) effect of the same human tendencies the constitution is already attempting to protect against.

I would suggest that the maxim that's been mentioned on here recently, "don't tear down a fence until you understand why it's been put up" would apply. And the understanding of why the constitution is the way it is requires a breadth of reading that includes Seneca, Plato, and many others. Not to mention the documented discussions between the folks who wrote it.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#92

Post by StillBored » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

vonwoodson wrote: post #69

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

You can’t hold a random analyst, usually a contractor and not a “government official”, for not sharing your opinion on what a 200-year old, intentionally vague, document meant about who-was-contacting-who on a pice of technology that wasn’t invented. Let alone a law that was, albeit controversial at the time, in place for almost 20 years. Would you prefer that your public servants follow the law... or do whatever the…

We hold low grade solders responsible for following illegal orders, even when those orders come from the very top of the chain of command.

Although its giant double standard, despite knowledge of illegal acts frequently those higher in the chain of command aren't held responsible (aka, look up waterboarding).

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#93

Post by dn3500 » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

You know what I don't get? Why is Edward Snowden, who exposed these crimes, being treated like a criminal?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#94

Post by shalmanese » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #53

dimitrios1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe some laws just don't have penalties? Having laws with no penalties is rather common. https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/26724/what-is-t...

When I was young and dreamed of being a rock star^W^W entrepreneur I used to pay more attention to contract law. It seems like everywhere from roommate, landlord, business, or partnership contracts, we seem to write down rules but not consequences or penalties. Oh you were supposed to pay rent or this invoice, but I can't make you do it? What's the point of contracts? The time I owned property with someone, I at leas…

The mark of a civil society is laws without punishments.

Low trust societies have to build in enforcement mechanisms for everything because if you don't, someone will cheat you for the slightest advantage and life inside them is punishingly inefficient. High trust societies rely on people to do the right thing out of a sense of civic pride, decency, group cohesion or some other regulating force.

Look at sports for example, the rules are written out in excruciating detail that account for the most unlikely of edge cases. What are the consequences of not following them? Well, outside of professional leagues, really nothing except people won't want to play with you. Why go to so much effort with the rules? Because the rules are what makes playing soccer different from playing rugby. They're what make the game the game.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#95

Post by ColanR » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #85

ColanR wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because there's no higher authority to appeal to for enforcement Technically, that higher authority is the people themselves. Bear in mind that the Constitution was written in a context where the governed people successfully held their government accountable at the business end of their hunting rifles.

>Bear in mind that the Constitution was written in a context where the governed people successfully held their government accountable at the business end of their hunting rifles. No they didn't, look up Shay's Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion as examples. The US government has never been successfully "held accountable" at gunpoint.

I was referring to the American Revolution. The 'holding accountable' was the revocation of Britain's authority over the colonies.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#96

Post by ColanR » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

benrbray wrote: post #84

ColanR wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because there's no higher authority to appeal to for enforcement Technically, that higher authority is the people themselves. Bear in mind that the Constitution was written in a context where the governed people successfully held their government accountable at the business end of their hunting rifles.

Violence is a last resort, but it shouldn't be the ONLY resort when government violates our rights.

Absolutely agreed that it is a very last resort. The declaration of independence actually does a good job of outlining just how much of a last resort the american revolution actually was.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#97

Post by kebman » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #54

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

> You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. It's because it can't reasonably work like that. At a certain point, defining punishments is moot, because there's no highe…

This is an interesting concept. In Norway, the parliament cannot pass contradictory laws, for instance, for the simple reason this tenet: "All power must be gathered in this hall". So in essence, Stortinget (our parliament) cannot pass laws that give power away, for instance. Doing so would be unconstitutional, also because our constitution explicitly states that power shall not be given away. Yet it has happened, but in those instances the laws is either handily disregarded at opportune times, or it's left to the suppreme court to decide the outcome where there are offended parties. And since they follow the constitution, they always follow the above tenet.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#98

Post by zachrose » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #75

downrightmike wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can and do love building prisons.

> We can and do love building prisons. Not so much any longer. The US incarceration rate is at a 20 year low and keeps falling. We've been reducing the prison population for a decade now. For example the black male imprisonment rate began declining finally during the second year of George W Bush's Presidency. It has dropped by around 36% since the year 2001. The US incarceration rate began declining about the same ti…

> The US incarceration rate is at a 20 year low and keeps falling.

Technically true, but man oh man do we have a ways to go before the war on drugs is mitigated[1]. Based on the trend of the last ~10 years, we're due to reach 1980 levels of prison population in the 23rd century[2].

[1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._incarceration_r... [2] https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/u-s-prison-po... (eye-balling Table 1)

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#99

Post by zucker42 » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #54

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

> You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. It's because it can't reasonably work like that. At a certain point, defining punishments is moot, because there's no highe…

> unconstitutional ex-post-facto punishment

This point makes no sense. A properly passed amendment to the Constitution (presumably what is meant by update) can never be unconstitutional by definition. Furthermore, prohibiting ex-post-facto laws means you can't pass a law which criminalizes actions in the past. But courts don't pass laws, they interpret them. There's plenty of cases where courts interpret a law in a new way because of new situation. For example, I'm sure Clayton County is going to face applicable penalties under Title VII after Bostock v. Clayton County (recent LGBT discrimination ruling).

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#100

Post by xxpor » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC

heimatau wrote: post #89

ardy42 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. It's because it can't reasonably work like that. At a certain point, defining punishments is moot, because there's no highe…

> If the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law..." and Congress still makes a law, what are you going to do, throw Congress in jail? That's nonsense. Actually, it's nonsense to think anything to the contrary. Either our founding document matters as the backbone of our Laws or it doesn't. Your outlandish logic nullifies any power that the government may have over it's people. It nullifies the social contract.…

>Either our founding document matters as the backbone of our Laws or it doesn't.

Nitpick, the constitution isn't a founding document. There was that whole Articles of Confederation thing.

Congress isn't the final authority of if laws are constitutional or not. The courts are. Congress and the Supreme Court commonly disagree on the constitutionality of laws. What you're proposing is essentially a oligarchy lead by the Supreme Court.

>Your outlandish logic nullifies any power that the government may have over it's people. It nullifies the social contract.

There is no social contract based on the constitution. It's just that enough people agree that it has value, so it does. That's not a social contract. No regular people voted on the Constitution. You don't have the ability to reject it if you don't agree with it.