Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal • Hacker News Board

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#61

Post by mc32 » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:34 PM UTC

danenania wrote: post #21

Barrin92 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to have a long tradition. I'm still baffled by how little punishment there was for Iran-Contra, key people were simply pardoned by Bush, or how little punishment there was for the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture, just looking at the pictures of the wikipedia article makes me want to throw up.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

Most people think of presidential pardons, but there are also pardons from governors that happen regularly as well, though not as public given their smaller stage.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#62

Post by downrightmike » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:36 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #54

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

> You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. It's because it can't reasonably work like that. At a certain point, defining punishments is moot, because there's no highe…

We can and do love building prisons.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#63

Post by outside1234 » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:39 PM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

VOTING is the penalty for many of these transgressions...

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#64

Post by krapp » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:39 PM UTC

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #25

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

What updates does the US constitution need? I think if we were to rewrite it today it would become largely the same, maybe with a footer that says “and this time we really mean it”

It's an eighteenth century document that can be maddeningly vague at times.

A lot of people (on HN at least) seem to think it's a problem that the First Amendment only applies to Congress, letting companies like Google or Facebook censor speech as much as they like.

The Second Amendment isn't even written in complete sentences, and we need a room full of scholars to figure out just what exactly they meant by "A well regulated Militia,"

The Third Amendment just seems absurd in the modern day.

Maybe we don't need the Electoral College?

Maybe the President's powers to draft executive orders and pardon people undermines the legislative and judicial branches and should be done away with, given how often they've been abused?

It must be possible to have a more efficient census than through the process required by the Constitution.

It should be possible, in a nation of immigrants, for an immigrant to run for President.

There is no Constitutionally guaranteed right to vote. Amendments related to voting, yes, but nowhere is voting considered to be a right, as opposed to a privilege.

Do we really need to explicitly make the justice system an exception to the Thirteenth Amendment and banning slavery?

That's all I could think of off the top of my head, not being a constitutional scholar. But it stands to reason that a document as old as the Constitution should be updated more often than it has been.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#65

Post by _8j50 » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:41 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #16

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

>How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? The program (and it's replacement) has been around for two decades. It was passed into law by Congress, administered by the executive branch and justice department, funded by Congress, and overseen by the Judiciary and Congress. So punish who? And for what crime? Based on what law? That the the ninth-circuit…

The executive branch. Following orders or implementing a law that violates citizens right should come with criminal consequence. I don't care who found it unconstitutional, there should be criminal punishment after a court rules that a crime was committed. Of course either side can appeal all the way to the supreme court using any laws or precedent. But if the final verdict is that a government official violated a citizens right, that official should be punished. If a law maker intentionally proposed a law that violates constitutional rights, there should be consequences. If a judge rules or operates intentionally to violate these rights there should be a punishment.

Just like doctors face malpractice lawsuits and felony charges, so should govetnment officials that intentionally violate citizes' rights.

I saw a video the other day where a cop arrested a person for insulting him. Worst case he would lose his job, but no punishment! This NSA case is a small example of a systemic disease.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#66

Post by _8j50 » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:43 PM UTC

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #51

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

Once the court has ruled, if those officials continue to engage in that activity, they can be held in contempt and imprisoned indefinitely until they stop engaging in that activity. The system achieves the goal of stopping the activity in question. What it doesn't do is create a deterrent for others who will engage in the same or similar activity in the future.

Yes, so being in contempt is the what is being punished. Like you said, being told to stop is the only consequence.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#67

Post by FirstMatey80 » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:43 PM UTC

kmlx wrote: post #45

ironmagma wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are objectively an oligarchy; there's no other explanation that makes sense.

objectively your post is false. the US has a flawed democracy, but a democracy nonetheless: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index consider the rest of the countries in that list

That index seems flawed. The methodology is not transparent. The Economist is not going to accuse its own ownership of oligarchy.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#68

Post by jacobush » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

bawolff wrote: post #59

danenania wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

I think its better to err on the side of not punishing people rather than punishing them too much. Pardons provide an escape hatch where we can skip a punishment if it seems manifestly unjust.

... for the rich and connected. The rest serve time.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#69

Post by vonwoodson » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

You can’t hold a random analyst, usually a contractor and not a “government official”, for not sharing your opinion on what a 200-year old, intentionally vague, document meant about who-was-contacting-who on a pice of technology that wasn’t invented. Let alone a law that was, albeit controversial at the time, in place for almost 20 years. Would you prefer that your public servants follow the law... or do whatever they feel like? Do what they personally think is the most moral, regardless of what actually elected officials have told them to do? Metadata is not the content of the calls but the data that the users put out to the world. The public facing data that’s necessary to even process communication in the first place. To use analogy, this would be like imprisoning a postal worker for reading the address on the outside of the envelope. The idea went that: if the intelligence community chooses to use that information for some thing other than just delivering the letter, that’s no more illegal than if you were to stand on a soapbox and scream all the bad things you did and the cops decided to hold some of that against you in court. IE. if you put it out there, than you don’t consider it a secret. But, now, (if the Supreme Court doesn’t step in), the policies will change in the state won’t be used anymore. And, those faithful public servants, who were following the law, will now follow the new law. And, the system works to protect your freedoms. Whereas, under your ideal, all the public servants that were following the law would be imprisoned and we’d have to find new public servants.. and threaten them with imprisonment if they don’t do what’s morally correct without respect to what they’re actually being told to do by the courts.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#70

Post by DennisP » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #54

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

> You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. It's because it can't reasonably work like that. At a certain point, defining punishments is moot, because there's no highe…

Seems like the courts could make a distinction between "ok this was unclear" and "this was obvious, egregious and deserving of penalties."

And while throwing Congress in jail seems unworkable, disqualifying members from reelection in egregious cases might be doable (though of course it would require a constitutional amendment).