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Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

politico.com

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Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#51

Post by Mountain_Skies »

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

Once the court has ruled, if those officials continue to engage in that activity, they can be held in contempt and imprisoned indefinitely until they stop engaging in that activity. The system achieves the goal of stopping the activity in question. What it doesn't do is create a deterrent for others who will engage in the same or similar activity in the future.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#52

Post by WealthVsSurvive »

penagwin wrote: post #34
danenania wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

I think it’s meant as a “check” on the judicial branch - if the head of the executive isn’t okay with the judicial branch’s dicision. But this isn’t really clarified, and in practice it’s usually used incredibly ambiguously boardering nefarious.

It might've been a check when the executive did little aside from protecting from foreign invaders. The terms-of-service for what the executive are has changed. It's not only anti-democratic, it's anti-republic as well.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#53

Post by hinkley »

dimitrios1 wrote: post #14
_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

Maybe some laws just don't have penalties? Having laws with no penalties is rather common. https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/26724/what-is-t...

When I was young and dreamed of being a rock star^W^W entrepreneur I used to pay more attention to contract law.

It seems like everywhere from roommate, landlord, business, or partnership contracts, we seem to write down rules but not consequences or penalties. Oh you were supposed to pay rent or this invoice, but I can't make you do it? What's the point of contracts?

The time I owned property with someone, I at least had the foresight to add two clauses. Right of first refusal (obvious), and another clause that if either party were behind on payments the other party could trigger arbitration, and one of those outcomes could be to force a sale (then looping back to rule #1).

But the 'punishment' in this case is that one party loses their ownership, and the other party either has to cough up a ton of cash or lose it too. In this case I had decidedly more liquid assets so I had an idea how that might play out if things went south. But I'm sure there are a ton of things not covered, and really weren't suggested by the lawyers.

Whatever penalties exist for the lawyer leaving a huge surface area for litigation, those are pretty opaque for the rest of us and I think they like it that way. Capital L Law just seems like a giant conflict of interests straight out of the gate.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#54

Post by ardy42 »

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

> You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it.

It's because it can't reasonably work like that. At a certain point, defining punishments is moot, because there's no higher authority to appeal to for enforcement. If the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law..." and Congress still makes a law, what are you going to do, throw Congress in jail? That's nonsense. The Constitution, for the most part, just states norms and procedures that the the country and government have decided to follow voluntarily, not because some authority will punish it if it doesn't.

> The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting on behalf of government who is found violating the bill of rights or any restriction set by articles of the constitution.

That might actually be unconstitutional ex-post-facto punishment. Many violations of the Constitution or Bill of Rights aren't clear until some court case interprets some action as not being in compliance. Would you have every county clerk that ever denied a same-sex marriage license or defined procedures to do so go to jail after Obergefell v. Hodges?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#55

Post by _8j50 »

dimitrios1 wrote: post #14
_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

Maybe some laws just don't have penalties? Having laws with no penalties is rather common. https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/26724/what-is-t...

You're absoutley right, but as the answer in your link points out, those laws are still enforced by some other means in most cases. My point was, obeying the most important laws of the land should not be left to the good will of government employees, if laws are to have penalties, is it not reasonable for the most important law to have the highest penalties?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#56

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

BeKindAndLearn wrote: post #44
jgust wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throwing out a prediction: If the Biden/Harris ticket wins in 2020 and Trump is charged with anything, expect a pardon from the president. People will rage for a bit, get tired, run out of attention span, and move on to the next controversy.

> expect a pardon from the president. Biden is on record saying this is right off the table. He will not pardon Trump.

This sort of comment makes me wish I had a dog and I was drinking coffee or beer so I could say something like:

"Ha! This comment just made me spurt my coffee all over the dog!"

You mean to say a politician is on record having made a promise, and you believe them?

Because that doesn't seem like an argument anyone would intentionally want to make.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#57

Post by chard_slicks_ »

ncmncm wrote: post #2

Now, when can we begin prosecuting the instigators? Presumably, after we have prosecuted those who ordered and participated in torture. (There is no statute of limitations on torture, is there?)

Will Clapper's perjury ever be punished?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#58

Post by ardy42 »

penagwin wrote: post #34
danenania wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

I think it’s meant as a “check” on the judicial branch - if the head of the executive isn’t okay with the judicial branch’s dicision. But this isn’t really clarified, and in practice it’s usually used incredibly ambiguously boardering nefarious.

> I think it’s meant as a “check” on the judicial branch - if the head of the executive isn’t okay with the judicial branch’s dicision.

It's also a check of the legislative branch. If someone's convicted under an unjust law, a pardon can restore justice.

IIRC, appealing to the leader for justice has a long history that predates the US Constitution. IIRC, such appeals have been an important safety valve, and the formalization of the leader's responses have resulted in whole new bodies of law (e.g. Equity came from the King attempting to correct deficiencies in the Common Law in cases that were appealed to him, then delegating the implementation and processing the appeals made to him to members of his court).

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#59

Post by bawolff »

danenania wrote: post #21
Barrin92 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to have a long tradition. I'm still baffled by how little punishment there was for Iran-Contra, key people were simply pardoned by Bush, or how little punishment there was for the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture, just looking at the pictures of the wikipedia article makes me want to throw up.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

I think its better to err on the side of not punishing people rather than punishing them too much. Pardons provide an escape hatch where we can skip a punishment if it seems manifestly unjust.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#60

Post by jimbob45 »

The real lesson of the Nazis should have been that secret police forces inevitably lead to corruption, even when they’re made with the best intentions. The #1 best method of preventing the Holocaust would have been better government oversight and transparency.

I’m fine with record collection if it works. The secret courts enabling these secret agencies only help hide bad actors and must be abolished.

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