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Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

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Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#351

Post by pyuser583 »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #247
pa7x1 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top European universities provide pretty good education pre-PhD level, in many cases the first 3-5 years in European schools is superior and more focused than the equivalent US curriculum. The first 1 or 2 years in US universities seem spent filling the gaps left by a mediocre High School education. US universities are then miles ahead of most European schools in their PhD programs bare a few exceptions (Oxford, Camb…

PhD programs in the US and elsewhere are often not directly comparable. Doing a PhD in the US typically involves 1-3 years still taking classes. Doing one in the UK means starting thesis-forming research immediately. Not really the same thing at all.

US and UK degrees in general are not comparable.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#352

Post by Qwertious »

robomartin wrote: post #80
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

Here's a potentially simple way to perhaps shave as much as 25% or more from the cost of STEM degrees in the US: Eliminate all non-STEM coursework from degree requirements. This could easily shave not only tens of thousands of dollars from a STEM degree but it would also cut it down by a year (if not more). I would also vector students who lack the proper foundation in say, language skills or the sciences, to take co…

Talk about removing non-STEM courses from university suggests a disagreement on what university is.

IMO if you want to remove non-STEM courses, what you actually want is a trade school. University is all about learning outside of the normal narrow viewpoint, so removing everything outside the narrow viewpoint defeats the point.

"But so what", you might say. Well, here's the problem: trade schools already exist, and nobody wants to hire from a trade school because it's seen as less classy.

I think this is the fundamental problem: People want a degree to primarily satisfy employers, and what employers want is to exclude people. You can't have an all-inclusive exclusive degree, it's an oxymoron.

Either you change employers' minds to match your vision of all-inclusive degrees, or you change the degrees to match employer's vision of exclusivity.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#354

Post by dougmwne »

jldugger wrote: post #325
bonoboTP wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the cost of American college doesn't go towards education but things like sports stadiums and teams, various non-academic events, administrators, various other non-academic staff, uniquely-expensive American legal costs and insurance, on-campus police (a big wtf for Europeans), and then there are also those people who decide which Halloween costumes are appropriate for students, investigate various misconduc…

> Americans expect college campuses to be like resorts You say that but the typical dorm room offers no privacy or air conditioning, and the showers and bathrooms are shared. They're similar in nature to SROs which the US pretty much abolished anywhere else, but way more expensive. And then universities have the audacity to demand that students live in them freshman year, even though living off campus would be cheape…

I had heard that there was a huge trend among colleges to build new single occupancy dorms that have the ammnities of a nice bed and breakfast. Partly due to increasing expectations and partly due to decreasing social skills around sharing living space (more only children or grew up in large house with no shared rooms among siblings). My alma mater built one of these dorms 15 years ago and it was incredibly popular.

From some quick googling: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/02/the-en...

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#355

Post by apta »

baconandeggs wrote: post #162
fastaguy88 wrote: post #91

It is difficult to overstate how mistaken this article is. College has mostly gotten more expensive because state support for public universities has dramatically decreased, from over 80% in the 1970's to less than 20% now. Since the taxpayer no longer pays for public higher education, the student does. The logic of this made some sense at the time; very high tuition subsidies were a gift to the upper middle and uppe…

> the price has gone up because students are responsible for more of the cost. That is not how prices work, the prices can't go up if the only buyers have no money. The price went up because they got access to credit. To government mandated credit.

Whenever credit is introduced, prices go up. No wonder why lending money with interest is prohibited in the major religions.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#356

Post by robomartin »

greedo wrote: post #256
robomartin wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I do understand what you are saying, the educational deficit we are seeing is at the high school level. When I attended high school we had coursework on ethics, logic, philosophy, business, literature, languages, etc. The average high school graduate in the US is shamefully unprepared for life. My greater point is that adding $50K in non-STEM coursework as a graduation requirement is wrong. The other element of…

If you think bias and indoctrination are something that only developed "over the last several decades," you're mistaken. This has been the case of all universities, since time immemorial. And the swing to the left started in the Sixties (at least in the US).

You are, of course, absolutely correct. I said the last few decades because that is, again, as you said, the current "phase" we are on.

We want universities to be places where ideas from a range of schools of thought mix and are able to be explored openly and without negative repercussions. I don't want the extreme right to own university thought any more than the extreme left. We know the consequences of mono-cultural group think are never positive. The canonical example of what happens when the extreme right owns university culture being Nazis, of course.

My personal view on this is that private universities can do as they please. Any university that is publicly funded, either directly or indirectly (government guaranteed loans are an example of this) must have faculty and a culture that reflects the nation with balance and openness.

The fact that our universities have tilted so far to the left isn't good for the nation. Anyone who disagrees with this should consider what things would be like if the opposite were true. If the right owned though at our universities it would be just as much of a nightmare in the making.

This interview with Niall Ferguson (Oxford/Cambridge/Harvard/Stanford professor) was a real eye opener. Some might disagree, but I think the topic warrants some thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKkNIOkGtnQ

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#357

Post by etempleton »

jldugger wrote: post #332
philwelch wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ tests aren’t blanket-banned; they just have additional hurdles. For instance, the Wonderlic test is routinely used in hiring contexts and is even part of the NFL scouting combine.

While the Wonderlic published, is it even used as a factor? Does a coach say "no linebackers who scored less than 18?"

Often it is used as a red flag when a prospect scores particularly low on the test. NFL playbooks are complex and there is a lot to learn and then apply in real time on the field compared to in college. Players who cannot process all of this added complexity rapidly and then apply it are at risk of not being able to keep up on the field, even if they are incredible athletes. This holds the most weight with quarterbacks who have the most to juggle mentally throughout a game, so you most often hear conversations about the wonderlic when talking about the quarterback position.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#358

Post by robomartin »

Qwertious wrote: post #352
robomartin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a potentially simple way to perhaps shave as much as 25% or more from the cost of STEM degrees in the US: Eliminate all non-STEM coursework from degree requirements. This could easily shave not only tens of thousands of dollars from a STEM degree but it would also cut it down by a year (if not more). I would also vector students who lack the proper foundation in say, language skills or the sciences, to take co…

Talk about removing non-STEM courses from university suggests a disagreement on what university is . IMO if you want to remove non-STEM courses, what you actually want is a trade school. University is all about learning outside of the normal narrow viewpoint, so removing everything outside the narrow viewpoint defeats the point. "But so what", you might say. Well, here's the problem: trade schools already exist, and…

> University is all about learning outside of the normal narrow viewpoint

PRECISELY!

Watch this then and tell me I am wrong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKkNIOkGtnQ

We are funding and paying for a "narrow narrow viewpoint" to our detriment. This is isn't what universities are for. I am 100% in agreement with you in that regard. Watch the interview and think about what he is saying.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#359

Post by tptacek »

SilasX wrote: post #295
tptacek wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People say that, but it's not really true. Tuitions are lower-tier schools are also extremely high; the tuition break doesn't happen until you get out of accredited 4-year universities and into community colleges.

Could you clarify what that's responding to? I don't see the connection to my point.

If college were priced purely as a positional good, tuitions at lower-tier schools would be be sharply lower than those of upper-tier schools. In Illinois, SIU and NIU cost approximately as much as UIUC, the state flagship.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#360

Post by 3131s »

bonoboTP wrote: post #259
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

A lot of the cost of American college doesn't go towards education but things like sports stadiums and teams, various non-academic events, administrators, various other non-academic staff, uniquely-expensive American legal costs and insurance, on-campus police (a big wtf for Europeans), and then there are also those people who decide which Halloween costumes are appropriate for students, investigate various misconduc…

I attended a small but well-known liberal arts school that increased tuition about 20k in well under a decade.

In a single year the tuition increased 5k, and yet the department of my major was downsized and classes that I needed to complete my degree were full. At the same time though they built a new $42 million "cultural exchange" building and began adding an enormous sports facility. It turned out that actually there was no intended purpose for the new building either, and it was mostly sat empty as far as I know.

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