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Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

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Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#91
It is difficult to overstate how mistaken this article is. College has mostly gotten more expensive because state support for public universities has dramatically decreased, from over 80% in the 1970's to less than 20% now. Since the taxpayer no longer pays for public higher education, the student does.

The logic of this made some sense at the time; very high tuition subsidies were a gift to the upper middle and upper class -- few poor students went to college back when subsidies were high. Ideally, states would have continued to fund higher education, and the increased tuition would be used to support lower income students. But the states took the money away from their universities in bad times, and did not replace it -- in my state (Virginia) it went to prisons and medicaid.

There are lots of other problems with student loan statistics -- it is true that the current student loan program has been a tremendous boon to for profit colleges and trade schools, which is where most of the default occurs. And the media likes to publicize the outliers; the average debt at public universities is about $26K, at private non-profits $31K.

But the overall cost of higher education has only slightly beaten the cost of living (and has certainly increased less than health costs); the price has gone up because students are responsible for more of the cost.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Universities in Europe are generally high quality and low cost. The cost is low for the student but it's pretty high for the taxpayers. Not US high but still, it's not free, there's lots of bloat in the system that thrives on volume of students not on quality so they try to push forward legislation and programs to increase the number of students, especially from abroad and build more faculties/universities with more…

No, the cost to tax payers in Europe is less than what people in USA have to pay the college. This is because my University (in Europe) had no sport facilities whatsoever , not even a soccer field. It also had no dormitories, canteens, no fancy library, sport teams etc. It did teaching + research, and nothing else.

For reference, cost in France is about 11kE per year for undergraduate and 22kE per year for master in computer science engineering. That's what it costs the university per student, not what the student pays (up to 1k a year). This doesn't cover accommodation or canteen since that's not part of the university.

I don't know what's the cost in the US but I don't imagine it's orders more. The worst number I heard from coworkers was 60k$ a year in NYC (that's easily triple income and taxes compared to France so not a straight comparison).

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#93
post #55
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers are allowed to test students to see what they can do, but not evaluate them based on whether they went to school or where. For those who are unaware, these tests are considered a violation of the Civil Rights Act because they result in hiring blacks at a much lower rate than whites. A big underlying cause of that is that schools with lots of blacks are underfunded relative to schools with lots of whites. Ma…

> For those who are unaware, these tests are considered a violation of the Civil Rights Act because they result in hiring blacks at a much lower rate than whites. Work sample tests are legal; otherwise we wouldn't see tech companies giving whiteboard interviews. More general tests are not legal ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co. ) unless you can demonstrate that they "bear a demonstrable relatio…

IQ tests aren’t blanket-banned; they just have additional hurdles. For instance, the Wonderlic test is routinely used in hiring contexts and is even part of the NFL scouting combine.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#95
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At many universities athletics is a major revenue driver. There is a very real financial incentive to have high performing athletic programs.

Is this revenue driven by athletics separate from tuition fees? Because if it isn't, that only confirms the hypothesis.

Yes, it comes from broadcast revenues, merchandise, ticket and concession sales, and donations brought in through the athletic department.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the choice of "High Quality, Low Cost" look like in practice? (Because I'm not seeing how to make that happen, other than "burying the actually high cost someplace where it's spread out and hard to see, so it looks like low cost".)

Without government backed student loans for literally anyone who wants it, you suddenly dry up the money for colleges. They are forced to compete on degree cost and quality alone, and degree ROI will likely start to get factored into the price. College used to be relatively low cost long ago and easily accessible to the middle class, even lower middle class. Yes, the colleges will be hurting and screaming if they too…

There are already very affordable college options - the reason many schools charge more is because of demand and exclusivity.

This is another example of sensationalism. According to an article on Forbes -> "The average student loan debt for members of the Class of 2018 is $29,200"

Is that really so egregious?

Isn't it more likely that semi-skilled labor jobs disappeared increasing the demand to go to college for a good job? I don't think the loans are enough to justify the increase.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#97
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also stop this degree inflation by requiring a $15 minimum wage on all jobs but a $25 minimum wage when the job lists a bachelor's degree requirement (applied based on whether the job requires a degree, not whether the employee has a degree).

Wouldn't work. Employers would simply not list the requirement but hire upon the criteria anyway.

If jobs with a similar title, description, and other requirements require a degree, and the people you hire all happen to have degrees, it's pretty obvious that you're using it as a criteria. While like other discrimination cases it may be difficult to prove in any one instance and thus small businesses who don't individually hire a statistically significant number of people might get away with it, large employers can still be held accountable.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#98
post #28
post #10

> the feds should handle student loans the same way they handle medicaid/medicare reimbursement. I'm not sure how anyone looks at our health care reimbursement system and the decides that's the approach to apply to fix anything else? Personally, I'd like to see: * Employers are allowed to test students to see what they can do, but not evaluate them based on whether they went to school or where. * Make student loan de…

> Employers are allowed to test students to see what they can do, but not evaluate them based on whether they went to school or where. This would never work. People who went to high-prestige schools want to signal that to their employer and when barred would find other ways to signal like "Interned in Dr. Blah's group at the MIT media lab" or "Secretary of the Princeton chapter of the Phi Beta Kappa." > Make student…

> This would basically destroy all specialized scientific research, education degrees, agricultural science, all high-level maths, biology, ecology, zoology, environmental research.

Why? All of these fields existed prior to student loans becoming non-dischargable. As it stands, in many fields there is a massive grad school bubble where there are many more grad students and Ph.D’s than tenured positions.

As for education degrees, those have the same basic instrumental role as engineering or business degrees—they’re a form of professional training and accreditation. A lot of minor public universities started off as teachers’ colleges in the first place.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#99
post #65
post #10

> the feds should handle student loans the same way they handle medicaid/medicare reimbursement. I'm not sure how anyone looks at our health care reimbursement system and the decides that's the approach to apply to fix anything else? Personally, I'd like to see: * Employers are allowed to test students to see what they can do, but not evaluate them based on whether they went to school or where. * Make student loan de…

You could also stop this degree inflation by requiring a $15 minimum wage on all jobs but a $25 minimum wage when the job lists a bachelor's degree requirement (applied based on whether the job requires a degree, not whether the employee has a degree).

That would mean those philosophy students wouldn't be able to get a job at McDonalds :)

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the choice of "High Quality, Low Cost" look like in practice? (Because I'm not seeing how to make that happen, other than "burying the actually high cost someplace where it's spread out and hard to see, so it looks like low cost".)

Without government backed student loans for literally anyone who wants it, you suddenly dry up the money for colleges. They are forced to compete on degree cost and quality alone, and degree ROI will likely start to get factored into the price. College used to be relatively low cost long ago and easily accessible to the middle class, even lower middle class. Yes, the colleges will be hurting and screaming if they too…

I think you're demonizing gov't intervention in education, but you can't expect a democratically elected Congress to not try to prevent China/Russia to overtake them in science/engineering. College fees are insane, and loans are almost predatory, yes. But if banks don't give you a loan to go to school, shouldn't the government intervene?

Also, I don't want VC backed colleges "competing" to maximize revenue/some arbitrary metric if colleges will go the way of Uber/Lyft.

The ROI idea is great and may be a good compromise. You may lose some non-STEM majors though, and I think that's a bad thing. Maybe the different colleges within a uni (eng, math, lib arts) should have different tuition.

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