Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy • Hacker News Board

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#251

Post by binarytox1n » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 7:24 PM UTC

yason wrote: post #175

bcrosby95 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's also an assumption that everyone wants to begin and end every trip, no matter how trivial, with a parking spot. It's an assumption that people will want to drive in traffic for 20 minutes minimum to get to a supermarket, do anything with their kids, or anything outside their property line. I wouldn't be surprised to find some suburbs with some of the traits you mention, but it hasn't been my experience with th…

supermarket has never been more than 2 miles away - certainly not a 20 minute drive and it's even within biking distance I'd consider that far, far away. My walk to the nearest train station is about one mile, takes about 15 minutes to get there on foot, and that's irritatingly far, too, considering the trip is two way and repeats every day. Something like a grocery shop should be accessible within decent walking dis…

American in Texas here - maybe this is a behavior encouraged by the very thing we're discussing, but going to the grocery store _every day_ is a big yikes to me. I go once a week and get everything I need for that week. Because I take my car, I can carry that amount of stuff.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#252

Post by adrianmonk » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 7:24 PM UTC

One factor that hasn't been mentioned here is climate.

Siena seems to have a very mild climate. Its average high temperature[1] in August is 28.3°C (82.9°F).

Compare that to Houston's monthly high for August, which is 35°C (95°F). Houston is also very humid[3].

Most people don't want to take a 10-minute walk when it's 95°F and humid. You arrive at your destination panting and very sweaty. It's more comfortable to take a 10-minute drive in an air conditioned car. To some people, it's preferable even if the drive takes 30 minutes due to traffic.

---

[1] https://en.climate-data.org/europe/italy/tuscany/siena-1089/

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Houston

[3] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/america-most-humid-cities-090...

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#253

Post by hannasanarion » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 7:24 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #229

yason wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

supermarket has never been more than 2 miles away - certainly not a 20 minute drive and it's even within biking distance I'd consider that far, far away. My walk to the nearest train station is about one mile, takes about 15 minutes to get there on foot, and that's irritatingly far, too, considering the trip is two way and repeats every day. Something like a grocery shop should be accessible within decent walking dis…

> A rule of thumb is that if something is far enough that I have to take the car in the first place I'll be incentivised to drive further away to a big supermarket/other big stores while I'm at it. The grocery store that’s 2 miles away is a big supermarket. The US doesn’t really do small groceries in most places.

The US used to have tons of small groceries everywhere. The legislative mandate for free parking everywhere has put them out of business, and many were demolished to build freeways.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#254

Post by luckylion » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 7:25 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #215

luckylion wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to go to the urban center for everyday things though, you go there because that's where the jobs are. When full remote becomes more wide-spread, that might change things rapidly.

It's not only jobs. Do you want to watch theater? Opera? Concerts? Major sports events? Do you want to join a club for an obscure African sport? I could go on and on. There is a reason we've been congregating in cities for millennia, despite having to overcome many diseases which are made worse by overcrowdedness.

> It's not only jobs. Do you want to watch theater? Opera? Concerts? Major sports events? Do you want to join a club for an obscure African sport? I could go on and on.

It's primarily jobs though. I know quite a few people who don't care enough for the Opera or obscure African sports to pay two or three times as much in rent and taxes. It's a mixed bag, some love living in the city, but all have to live in the city if they want to work in certain jobs & have a career.

> There is a reason we've been congregating in cities for millennia, despite having to overcome many diseases which are made worse by overcrowdedness.

Yes, primarily because that's where the opportunities were, always. The colorful cultural life you describe was (and still is) enjoyed by the urban elite, that wasn't a thing for the working poor in e.g. 19th century Paris. Their entertainment would be a bottle of wine and laughter with friends after slaving away in the factories; much the same they'd have in a village, just minus having a job and some money. Today's working class might go to the movies (if they don't prefer Netflix), the theaters, opera houses, obscure sports etc are upper class things.

That might be changing, though I'm not convinced we'll see full remote work for large amounts of office jobs.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#255

Post by CydeWeys » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 7:25 PM UTC

RangerScience wrote: post #231

tuna-piano wrote: post #55

It's interesting that protests generally happen in dense parts of cities. Now imagine a city without a dense part - protesting becomes more difficult. Myanmar's non-democratic military government actually moved their capital from a dense city to a new city so spread out and with no downtown area - potentially to prevent the ability to protest the government. https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/inside-burma-s-ghost-t…

IMO this is part of why why protests started marching down freeways. In LA, if you protest by marching down basically any freeway, you snarl up that freeway (and likely more) for tens of miles, at least (AFAIK). (the 101 between hollywood and DTLA is essentially a single thing, the 10 between DTLA and West Side, the 405 from culver city up to over the pass in sherman oaks...) AKA, the "center" isn't geographic, but..…

It also gives a great sense of your own power (which is very important to protest movements) in marching along and shutting down a freeway, which you could never in any other situation just calmly walk down the middle of. Critical Mass is invigorating for the same reasons.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#256

Post by s1artibartfast » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 7:25 PM UTC

brmgb wrote: post #227

maxsilver wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously they haven't, and they remain great options for people wealthy enough to afford Parisian Townhouses. But unless you somehow gift me one million dollars USD or more (and the same to every single person I know), none of us are going to be able to afford to live anywhere in Paris that actually has close access to all of those things you've described, with the living situation described above. If we're magicall…

> But unless you somehow gift me one million dollars USD or more (and the same to every single person I know), none of us are going to be able to afford to live anywhere in Paris that actually has close access to all of those things you've described, with the living situation described above. Have you ever set foot in a European city ? I currently live in Paris. Bus, metro and Vélib' are three minutes away and I am n…

>I could afford to start a family here. Two affluent people can rent 750 square feet in Paris. I could even probably buy if I accepted to be in debt for thirty years.

I think this is the exact tradeoff that is being discussed. Some people are OK with the 750 square ft flat. Others want a 3,000 sqft home on a quarter acre with room to park a boat or RV.

You can get this within a 15 minute Drive of downtown Houston for $300k, but you wont be walking to the local grocery or civic building.

As far as I can tell, 300k will buy you a 250 sqft apartment in Paris, but you will have access to walkable civic amenities.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#257

Post by vel0city » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 7:25 PM UTC

matchbok wrote: post #218

johnbrodie wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused as to whether you're describing urban living or suburban living. Both have everything mentioned, the latter without being stacked on top of your neighbors.

In no way do the suburbs have the quality and diversity of food that any urban core does. 0%. I've been in both, they simple do not compare.

There's little reason why it would be impossible to have though. I live in a suburb. You'd be hard pressed to think of a type of food that I couldn't get within a 15min drive. Rotating sushi restaurant? Check. Lebanese bakery? Check. Canadian poutine? Check. Noodle restaurant - you want Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Vietnamese? Which of the half dozen hot pot restaurants would you want to go to? Don't forget to pick up some borscht from the Russian restaurant. Meanwhile I go downtown and there's less choice of restaurants than the suburb I live in. Turns out you don't have to live in San Fransisco or Manhattan to have more than just a McDonalds to eat at in the US.

Many suburbs elsewhere may only have Applebees as the pinnacle of culture, but that is not a given. Not every city is the same around the world. Not every suburb is the same.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#258

Post by rgblambda » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 7:25 PM UTC

wozniacki wrote: post #202

abraxas wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. There are very walkable and affordable cities with pleasant neighborhoods that don't break the bank in all parts of the world (sans North America). Off the top of my head and from first hand experience: - Warsaw - Glasgow - Porto - Lisbon - Athens (Greece) - Berlin - Budapest - Barcelona (OK, this one gets pricey but is superbly laid out)

The cities you list are not exactly diverse economic powerhouses in the same way even Houston is. A comparison of the "GDPs" of those cities would show that much. Also no one wants to walk through blighted or a high crime neighborhood. American cities have a lot more diversity than any of the cities you mention with income disparities separating various races and stocks of people. Homogeneity of the populaces involve…

>>Walking through even the ghetto-est part of Belfast may not be the same as walking through the same in Opa-locka, Miami-Dade County, Florida. There are no racial boundaries to overcome in Belfast or Budapest.

I think you may have picked the worst possible example for articulating your point.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#259

Post by CydeWeys » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

mikece wrote: post #232

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason why the Eisenhower Interstate System signs have the 5 stars of a general.

If I'm not mistaken, the 5-star logo only applies to sections of interstate highway that have at least one mile of level and straight road in any given 5-mile stretch. The idea was that an "Eisenhower Freeway" could be used as an impromptu landing spot for Air Force planes. While I'm sure this ability was tested at the beginning I don't know if there are regular drills and exercises making use of this feature.

This is an urban legend debunked in the linked Wikipedia article: "According to urban legend, early regulations required that one out of every five miles of the Interstate Highway System must be built straight and flat, so as to be usable by aircraft during times of war. There is no evidence of this rule being included in any Interstate legislation."

The Eisenhower Interstate Highway System is designed for military purposes only in the sense that it's very important to be able to quickly move your troops and materiel around to where they're needed (i.e. logistical reasons). In other words, it's important to the military for the exact same reasons that it's important to anyone else.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#260

Post by throw0101a » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 7:28 PM UTC

exabrial wrote: post #7

The elephant in the room is the assumption that _everyone wants to be stacked on top of each other_. I do agree that designing cities around cars has ruined a lot of nice places though.

> The elephant in the room is the assumption that _everyone wants to be stacked on top of each other_.

You can have density that supports public transit and walkable retail without having to build like HK or Manhattan. This is in the middle of a Toronto neighbourhood that was build in the 1910s (use street view to poke around):

* https://www.google.com/maps/place/150+Westminster+Ave,+Toron...

Currently these houses/land are very expensive because living 'downtown' is fashionable again, but up until the 1990s they were reasonably priced because... who would want to live downtown when you could live in the suburbs?

Some smaller sized houses on the next street over:

* https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+O...

Most have lane way garages. They're generally 3-4 bedrooms.

Everyone can have a front yard, everyone can have a backyard (with an accessible garage), and no one is really "stacked" on each other.