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China again boosts R&D spending by more than 10%

sciencemag.org

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Re: China again boosts R&D spending by more than 10%

#61

Post by justicezyx »

sct202 wrote: post #50
mistermann wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how it would look if there was some magical way to view it on an ROI basis. Rather than focusing on R&D (science & technology presumably), I'd like to see Western countries start approaching ~"the humanities" (culture, society, happiness, etc) the same way we treat technology and industry. To me it seems fairly clear that there are distinct differences at the human satisfaction level between different countr…

China once had a large emphasis on humanities, the Imperial Exams used to be primarily tests and essays on classical books, philosophy, and poetry. Science, engineering, and math were not important. It did not turn out well for them.

Imperial exams only normally emphasize humanity.

Like any aristocracy, the ruling class is born and raised to care not the humanity, but their humanity's value to them.

Imperial exams amplify those value and ideology by enforcing a strict caste systems in the classic reading, etc. That's not emphasis on humanity, that's emphasis on human caste.

Re: China again boosts R&D spending by more than 10%

#62

Post by justicezyx »

gamblor956 wrote: post #41
bserge wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least we know Chinese companies (and by extension, the government) do indeed spend a lot on research, development and production. The sheer amount of tech made and shipped from China is astonishing. And the quality has massively improved, while prices stay low. Everything from amazing BGA reballing stations to high quality solar panels and power tools.

A lot of that IP was stolen from US and EU companies. Cost isn't the only reason that manufacturing is moving out of China; companies are finally realizing that using Chinese factories is tantamount to giving the PRC access to all of your technical IP.

This rhetoric is becoming more and more false with time...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/16/china-intellectual-prop...

Re: China again boosts R&D spending by more than 10%

#63

Post by bilekas »

alfalfasprout wrote: post #53
mensetmanusman wrote: post #3

In principal this is good for humanity so long as the research isn’t directed towards tools to improve efficiency of repression.

One thing I’ve noticed is that although eg; investing in R&D and STEM education in China has skyrocketed in the last 5-ish years in practice tech there still doesn’t seem extremely polished and talent coming to the US has been iffy on average (with the exception of the very top talent which is still excellent). A good proportion of Chinese research is still rampantly fraudulent and of the legitimate research only a s…

> there still doesn’t seem extremely polished and talent coming to the US has been iffy on average

What does this matter ? Can't they stay in China ?

> This implies a low return on R&D investment.

Whatever about the ethics of it, the work has been done by others they are stealing it from, im not sure how that's a low return..

> from companies with a US presence. Perhaps collaboration is difficult?

Or easier to do business in the US with offices there..

Honestly your whole point just seems to look for stereotype-ish grievances to air.

Re: China again boosts R&D spending by more than 10%

#64

Post by mistermann »

smeeth wrote: post #49
mistermann wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how it would look if there was some magical way to view it on an ROI basis. Rather than focusing on R&D (science & technology presumably), I'd like to see Western countries start approaching ~"the humanities" (culture, society, happiness, etc) the same way we treat technology and industry. To me it seems fairly clear that there are distinct differences at the human satisfaction level between different countr…

You said the "humanities", but the examples of research you'd like were from the "social sciences". The humanities deals with fields like comparative literature, poetry, history, Russian language studies, etc. I am personally quite happy my tax dollars do not fund a lot of that, though I know not everyone feels this way. Psychology and sociology are the fields that study the human happiness or social dynamics issues…

> You said the "humanities", but the examples of research you'd like were from the "social sciences".

If we're being pedantic, I'd like to point out what I actually said:

>> ~"the humanities" (culture, society, happiness, etc)

It appears I've made an error in terminology, but I would have anticipated the additional words I included would have rectified my error. Apparently my heuristics failed in this case.

> Psychology and sociology are the fields that study the human happiness or social dynamics issues you referenced, and both funded by the NSF[0], so is it just that you wish they had more funding?

Generally, I would like us to fund anyone who has novel ideas that may offer useful insight into the state of affairs on the planet, which largely derives from human actions and interactions. The quirkiness of specific forum conversations (this one, for example) is one class of interactions where I believe we could learn something useful that may shed light on broader trends we see in society, if we put some serious effort into it.

I'd have to review the specifics of what the NSF is studying and the results, but from an armchair commentator perspective (observing the general state of the world and the quality of public discourse) I wouldn't expect they are producing useful insights - although, it's completely possible they produce excellent results, and are completely being ignored (which should be noticed in a proper review).

Re: China again boosts R&D spending by more than 10%

#65

Post by bilekas »

ComodoHacker wrote: post #27
mensetmanusman wrote: post #3

In principal this is good for humanity so long as the research isn’t directed towards tools to improve efficiency of repression.

Is improvement in quality of face recognition 'good for humanity'?

This is one of those technologies that if in the hands of good faith actors could provide some positive results, like criminal tracking etc.

But in the real world, its never just in the right hands.. Sigh yet it will still be perfected.. :|

Re: China again boosts R&D spending by more than 10%

#66

Post by rmrfstar »

wintermutestwin wrote: post #9
mensetmanusman wrote: post #3

In principal this is good for humanity so long as the research isn’t directed towards tools to improve efficiency of repression.

I wonder if anyone has tried to measure repression's "drag coefficient" effect on creativity.

The origin of Operation Paperclip [1] researchers is not heartening for the "repression research drag" thesis.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

Re: China again boosts R&D spending by more than 10%

#67

Post by mistermann »

sct202 wrote: post #50
mistermann wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how it would look if there was some magical way to view it on an ROI basis. Rather than focusing on R&D (science & technology presumably), I'd like to see Western countries start approaching ~"the humanities" (culture, society, happiness, etc) the same way we treat technology and industry. To me it seems fairly clear that there are distinct differences at the human satisfaction level between different countr…

China once had a large emphasis on humanities, the Imperial Exams used to be primarily tests and essays on classical books, philosophy, and poetry. Science, engineering, and math were not important. It did not turn out well for them.

From a logical perspective, should one conclude from this that effort invested into the humanities is a waste of time? If not, what meaning should one take from it (and, how might we confirm whether that meaning is reasonably optimal from a "social engineering" perspective)?

The explicit mechanics of how society makes optimized decisions on public policy and spending seems like an area that needs improvement. Specific areas of what I refer to are global climate change, rules on wearing masks during pandemics, taxation, etc - the manner in which we currently approach such questions seems extremely sub-optimal to me, to the degree that I sometimes wonder if some approaches may be in part designed to be confusing and dysfunctional.

Re: China again boosts R&D spending by more than 10%

#68

Post by bilekas »

StreamBright wrote: post #26
aloisdg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each country of the EU has some dark corners, but I am still trusting them more than I would trust the USA, China or Russia.

I used to think I could trust the EU more than he rest. No more. Wirecard story shows how much this trust is misplaced.

Well this is a ridiculous statement. That's like saying you don't trust the US anymore because ENRON messed up. Nonsense. The Germans are investigating it, and as always they will make changes to prevent the nonsense again. Ironically enough, it stemmed from the US model of too many lobbyists. :D

Re: China again boosts R&D spending by more than 10%

#69

Post by mistermann »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #47
mistermann wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how it would look if there was some magical way to view it on an ROI basis. Rather than focusing on R&D (science & technology presumably), I'd like to see Western countries start approaching ~"the humanities" (culture, society, happiness, etc) the same way we treat technology and industry. To me it seems fairly clear that there are distinct differences at the human satisfaction level between different countr…

According to the world happiness report [1] first 20 places are taken by "western" countries. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#2019_Wo...

It would be interesting to know how accurate that estimation is. It would also be interesting to know how many people deeply and unambiguously realize that such studies are speculative estimates (as opposed to facts), and why that is the case.

It is metaphysical-type questions like this that seem to get very little formal attention and funding. I would like to see humanity devote more effort to this type of initiative, and less towards optimizing advertising, making phones thinner, games more addicting, developing technology to send the ultra-wealthy into space, etc.

Re: China again boosts R&D spending by more than 10%

#70

Post by fsflover »

im3w1l wrote: post #35
wintermutestwin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that it would have to. If your society punishes/limits/eliminates divergent behavior and thought, you are throttling your innovation lever. I think that rising D&I budgets are a recognition of this truth. It seems like common sense to me, but I'd be interested to know if it has been studied/measured...

As long as you pay lip service to the right politics you can innovate as much as you want in science and technologies. You are free to use tabs for indentation or write your webservice in brainfuck if you want. What can be a drag on innovation is if there is nepotism. If the leader appoints his good-for-nothing nephew to science minister. Or if there is corruption, and well connected incumbents throw up endless barri…

> As long as you pay lip service to the right politics you can innovate as much as you want in science and technologies.

Unless you innovate in some field detrimental to the government, e.g. education, anonymity, freedom etc.

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