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Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

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Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#971
post #955

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is politically very very left. I'm guessing that someone at Google may have browsed these apps, decided they didn't like what they saw, and pressured to have the apps banned. Obviously they can't do that to large players like Facebook, but small apps, they can easily crush, and nobody's going to do anything about it. Image if Google decided to just block certain websites on Chrome, or if big tech got domain re…

That already happened with certain extremist Islamic websites.

I wonder if Cloudflare is still protecting ISIS sites from DDoSses and the like.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#972
post #270
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the 'App Stores'. Think of them as retail outlets, in a mall. Do you see shady stuff going on there? Would 'The Gap' sell porn to increase profits by 15%? Of course not. And for obvious reasons. We shouldn't think of 'App Stores' as some kind of truly open marketplaces, any more than a shopping mall is. What we need is just more independent means of distribution.

These threads make it obvious that most people would be okay with malls being the only place where shopping is allowed to happen. "Our local mall is great, I don't see a need for any other malls or standalone stores. Malls provide an air conditioned space, on-site site security, and even refreshments while you shop." I think it stems from a lack of empathy for others. I don't buy dildos so I see no reason to allow di…

I don't read it that way at all.

I think most people understand there are many places to buy stuff.

Shopping malls are 'one kind of place' and they have special rules.

I haven't set foot in a Mall in a few years literally, they can't be that important.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#973
post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturing consent online is dependent on the rules of the game. Russian-bot-syndrome is a fraud issue, in this case a state actor manipulating the 1-person-1-voice assumption of the game. If we're making a marketplace metaphor, then this market is being tilted toward actors with the resources to pay for bots, workers, or influencers. It's not like it's limited to Russia; Bloomberg was somewhat showy during the pr…

Has anyone demonstrated how many people these "Russian bots" have influenced? There's enough craziness online before throwing in non-linear warfare. I'd imagine it's far less influence than, say, Charles Koch has. Why is it ok that he has an outsized influence on our "democracy" but such a terrible thought that Putin has influence? It's not like either person will act in our collective interest.

It's connected to the same reason we only allow US citizens to be involved in US politics. You at least assume that a citizen has a direct interest in the country's domestic well-being. We talk about russian bots nationally because violating that norm is a cultural scandal, but there's plenty of discussion around outsize influence by corporations and the rich in social media as well. It's not really okay for anybody.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#974

The rationale they gave is that hate speech appears on these apps, because some of the microblogging sites that can be accessed via Fediverse have this kind of content. Based on this rationale, I look forward to Google Play removing Chrome, Firefox, and all other web browsers from the store as well.

Why not go all the way and just ban all ISPs?

That actually might be an improvement over the current situation.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#975
post #728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This would imply there are interpretations where it isn't allowed even in the cases of the worst most extreme content. That would be the interpretation where someone actually reads the text of the Constitution instead of making up exceptions out of whole cloth. > Does any organization/group advocate such an interpretation? Yes, obviously. The Libertarian Party is one example: >> … we oppose all attempts by governme…

The issue is what is classified as free speech? Perjury for example might not seem like a free speech issue, but under the most extreme versions it must be allowed. As such it’s common for groups to carve out what the want limited as simply not qualifying as speech. Aka we can ban spam because we are banning the medium and not the message. This then gets into issues like should flag burning be allowed which blur the…

> Perjury for example might not seem like a free speech issue, but under the most extreme versions it must be allowed.

If your perjury gets someone else punished when they shouldn't have been, you are an accessory to that unjust punishment. Conversely, if your perjury shields someone from just punishment then you are an accessory to the harm they caused their victim, and potentially future victims who would have otherwise been protected. Once again it is not the speech which is the problem but rather the actual harm which you helped to cause.

> This then gets into issues like should flag burning be allowed which blur the line between message and medium.

That isn't even a question of speech, just private property. If it's your flag then you should be able to burn it, for any reason or no reason. Banning flag-burning on the basis of the message the act is attempting to communicate would obviously infringe on the freedom of speech under even the narrowest of definitions. If you're burning someone else's flag then that can be punished as theft and destruction of others' property independent of any speech which may or may not have been intended. Freedom of speech is not a "get out of jail free" card. If in the course of making your speech you also take actions which harm others then you can be punished for those actions; the fact that they were accompanied by speech is no excuse.

> Thus simply saying you support free speech is a rather meaningless statement.

I kind of agree with you here. Freedom of speech only takes on concrete form when combined with consistent support for private property rights, in which case you get freedom of speech as a natural by-product. The question becomes not "Is this speech?" but rather "Does this action cause injury or otherwise infringe on anyone else's property rights?"—something that speech per se can never do.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#976

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gab bans people openly and credulously discussing marxism. I have experimented with and experienced this directly. So, it fails my litmus test for "an uncensored platform." And it's a bit comical, because Gab as a community experience is much smaller (in my perspective) from even weird sites like minds or funky social blockchain plays. Why they felt the need to ban discusions of marxism or a general strike is beyond…

Likely because the intended audience is not people who see it as a viable alternative or something worth even entertaining. The irony of the situation being someone took the time to make their own platform for like minded individuals, and people in other spaces who've been known to tow the "you're free to make your own platform" line get extraordinarily bent out of sort when people actusally go and do just that. The…

Well, you don't see me make fun of Parler as much because they're honest about their intentions. Gab originally claimed they were about "freedom" so it seems pretty fair to me to call them out on moderation that is clearly political.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#977
post #728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is what is classified as free speech? Perjury for example might not seem like a free speech issue, but under the most extreme versions it must be allowed. As such it’s common for groups to carve out what the want limited as simply not qualifying as speech. Aka we can ban spam because we are banning the medium and not the message. This then gets into issues like should flag burning be allowed which blur the…

> Perjury for example might not seem like a free speech issue, but under the most extreme versions it must be allowed. If your perjury gets someone else punished when they shouldn't have been, you are an accessory to that unjust punishment. Conversely, if your perjury shields someone from just punishment then you are an accessory to the harm they caused their victim, and potentially future victims who would have othe…

> Once again it is not the speech which is the problem but rather the actual harm which you helped to cause.

Unfortunately that doesn’t work as outlawing harm from speech ends up outlawing political speech because someone doesn’t get elected. Similarly, advertising your product is detrimental to your competition.

Effectively you need to define what kinds of harm speech is allowed to produce. Anti Vaccination videos for example actually get people killed, and we accept that as a valid trade off in the US.

Again, it’s really tempting to define something as outside of free speech but selecting what is and isn’t allowed is kind of the point. So, you can’t simply punt this issue.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#978

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>User content on most websites are published by automation, and are not reviewed by humans, like this comment. So what? They choose to publish it. They can choose not to. Their own internal business practices don't require society to give them loopholes with which they get out of all liability and abuse the rights of others. It's a good reason to the publisher, its not a good reason for the rest of society.

> So what? They choose to publish it. Who chose what, exactly? In western legal systems, laws typically take into account the mens rea of the crime that has taken place. It is not reasonable to make people guilty by proxy. Someone either did the crime, or they didn’t. If you own a building, and someone writes a bomb threat on a bathroom stall, are you guilty of a bomb threat?

>It is not reasonable to make people guilty by proxy. Someone either did the crime, or they didn’t.

If there is no crime in publishing the content then overturning special protections in section 230 will have no effect.

>If you own a building, and someone writes a bomb threat on a bathroom stall, are you guilty of a bomb threat?

If you have a magazine, and publish letters to the editor that contain bomb threats, yes. A building isn't a publishing business, and these companies are in the business of publishing, but it turned into publishing on computers and suddenly they get a special exemption.

They choose what goes on their platform, who can go on it, what is said. They've demonstrated amply their ability to control speech and enforce policy. Let them have their platforms, let them have the liability like everyone else.

It's all just equal treatment under the law.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#979

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free Speech Extremist. Shitposters Club. No Agenda Social. Lets all love Lain. There are ton of instances which much of the Fediverse blocks, but if you set up your own server and follow people on those instances, it's not 80% hate speech and racism as others would have you believe. Yes there is some of that, but there's also weebs, and anime and political discussion and weird gaming discussion and videos not posted…

Or it exactly understands how it works and Google doesn't much like how it works.

Which i have always suspected was the real reason they killed off Google Wave in such a hurry, even thou we were told they found it useful for collaboration within Google.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#980
post #956

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, the position of the censor has always been as the governmental authority. Censorship is a threat from a governmental perspective. The assertion that moderation of hate speech on private platforms is censorship is a form of moral panic. As the owner of private property if someone were to graffiti my walls without permission it would be absolutely absurd to suggest that the person who vandalized my goods…

> Historically, the position of the censor has always been as the governmental authority This is just plain false. The dictionary definition [1] disagress with you, Wikipedia explicitly mentions private private organisations [2]. Religion institutions have censored a lot of things in the past [3]. If what you said were true, government censorship would not be a phrase people used as it would be a pleonasm. > As the o…

>> Historically, the position of the censor has always been as the governmental authority

> This is just plain false. The dictionary definition [1] disagress with you, Wikipedia explicitly mentions private private organisations [2]. Religion institutions have censored a lot of things in the past [3]. If what you said were true, government censorship would not be a phrase people used as it would be a pleonasm.

Nice strawman, but that wasn't my argument. My statement was quite clearly not about the definition but the historical position of the censor. Let's first take the etymology of the word and examine it in context shall we? The Roman Censor was a magisterial position that in addition to running the census in regular intervals also responsible for morality laws also known as regimen morum. It was under the regimen morum that Socrates was found guilty of corrupting the youth and his censorship which led to his sentence of drinking hemlock and ultimately, death. We can look at early China and see similar themes arise in that the position of the censor was typically a governmental magistrate with high authority in place to regulate moralistic behavior.

When the enlightenment philosophers started espousing free speech movement they were fighting against monarchical tyrants who were trying to quell the dissent from a relatively new invention, the press. Sadly during this time the Catholic Church was also engaging in the Spanish Inquisition, the slaughter of Jews and Non-Conformist counter establishment churches. Freedom of Conscious, the ability to choose ones own morals, religion, method of governance, the denouncement of the absolute authority of monarchs were all part of the boiling pot that made free speech thinkers and ultimately those who wrote the US constitution encode the rights of all people to speak freely without consequence from governmental authority.

However, that is not to say that what you say is without consequences, a spoken threat can still be grounds for civil or criminal prosecution, likewise so can libel or slander be grounds of a lawsuit. Furthermore, while the enlightenment philosophers who espoused free speech are often credited for those freedoms we currently enjoy, not many of them endorsed the concept of universal toleration. You see, there is a difference between freedom of conscious, speech, expression, and religion vs universal toleration. Universal toleration is the idea hate speech, the suppression of minority opinion, community persecution of morality, pornography of all forms regardless of the level of exploitation involved including but not limited to child porn, and snuff films, must be tolerated without let or limit.

There exists a boundary, a line of demarcation, which can be used to separate what is tolerable with what is not and that line is consent. Can the parties involved in an activity consent to that activity? Two gay people aren't hurting each other, but threatening to beat them up certainly is. What is the age of consent vs the age of maximal maturity? Are sex workers a blight on society or are the conducting business on their own terms. Do people doing drugs deserve prison? These are intellectual and philosophical quandaries, some of them I fall into one side or the other on. Personally I would like to see voting, drinking, drug use, age of consent, what age you can enlist at, etc all be raised beyond even 21. But the one thing I think we can all agree on is that if you do something, with the intent and purpose to harm another then that is intolerable.

So where does that make me fall on the corporate censorship debate? Well there are different kinds of corporate censorship, the kind that I abhor and the kind that I endorse. I abhor the idea of a corporation censoring press about them when it shows them in a negative light despite uncomfortable truths. But if I am running a platform and people are spreading content that is contrary to my intent, that I could consider harmful to my business, specifically hate speech that is intended to suppress a group or ideal then that to me is not even censorship, it is moderation of content and editorial discretion, and I fully endorse that.

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