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Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

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Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#771

Post by DetroitThrow »

EGreg wrote: post #598
mc32 wrote: post #95

It always starts like that. People agree to very sensible things. Like hate speech is bad and it’s not censorship if it’s not mandated by the government. Eventually the definition of hate or whatever it is that’s offensive is very removed from the original meaning, and now we all bear the brunt of the sensible people who with best intentions wanted to make things better.

It also goes the other way. Section 230 was about child pornography and became used as a safe harbor for anything. I am not usually agreeing w the Trump admin but they do have a point there. In general our thinking about freedom of speech is itself idiosyncratic in the same way. Human FREEDOMS means doing what you want. It’s not the same as a right to a megaphone maintained by thousands of employees and infrastructur…

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was chosen for a reason in contrast to the term Locke used (estate): individual freedom was supposed to be balanced with the interests of the society that allowed them to exist and be pursued in the first place, which are what courts consider fundamental rights.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#772

Post by ryukafalz »

EGreg wrote: post #598
mc32 wrote: post #95

It always starts like that. People agree to very sensible things. Like hate speech is bad and it’s not censorship if it’s not mandated by the government. Eventually the definition of hate or whatever it is that’s offensive is very removed from the original meaning, and now we all bear the brunt of the sensible people who with best intentions wanted to make things better.

It also goes the other way. Section 230 was about child pornography and became used as a safe harbor for anything. I am not usually agreeing w the Trump admin but they do have a point there. In general our thinking about freedom of speech is itself idiosyncratic in the same way. Human FREEDOMS means doing what you want. It’s not the same as a right to a megaphone maintained by thousands of employees and infrastructur…

>Section 230 was about child pornography

What? It most certainly was not!

The CDA as a whole was an attempt to regulate indecency and obscenity on the internet. Think "pornography that might be seen by minors"[0]. (Remember, this was the 90s.) Most of it (with the exception of section 230) was struck down in court for obvious first-amendment reasons. Section 230 was added later during the process by the House, after the bill had passed through the Senate, and was more about defamation than anything else[1].

[0] https://www.congress.gov/bill/104th-congress/senate-bill/652... - search for "This title may be cited as the ``Communications Decency Act of 1996''."

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/21/18700605/section-230-inte...

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#773

Post by mountainboot »

travisoneill1 wrote: post #401
claudiawerner wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm understanding you right, the idea is that some harms, physical ones, are fair game for the law to cover, but other harms (mental ones) or a collection of boundary cases are less (if at all) within the purview of legislation. I think there's a good conversation to be had as to what in particular makes physical harms so special as compared to others, and how existing law in every country (including the US) can c…

You can prove physical harm beyond a reasonable doubt. Mental harm is frequently concocted as a bullying tactic, e.g. the recent NY Times editorial controversy where employees said running an editorial they disagreed with made them "feel unsafe." https://www.npr.org/2020/06/08/871817721/head-of-new-york-ti...

The article you link did not mention the employees saying running the editorial made them "feel unsafe". Neither the word safe nor unsafe appears in the article. It says the article "reportedly elicited strong objections" from the staff.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#774

Post by coldacid »

EGreg wrote: post #598
mc32 wrote: post #95

It always starts like that. People agree to very sensible things. Like hate speech is bad and it’s not censorship if it’s not mandated by the government. Eventually the definition of hate or whatever it is that’s offensive is very removed from the original meaning, and now we all bear the brunt of the sensible people who with best intentions wanted to make things better.

It also goes the other way. Section 230 was about child pornography and became used as a safe harbor for anything. I am not usually agreeing w the Trump admin but they do have a point there. In general our thinking about freedom of speech is itself idiosyncratic in the same way. Human FREEDOMS means doing what you want. It’s not the same as a right to a megaphone maintained by thousands of employees and infrastructur…

Sadly, Wikipedia's been controlled by a whole number of wackos with megaphones for years. I wouldn't trust them to fact check my big toe.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#775

Post by ryukafalz »

aftergibson wrote: post #702

I use an Apple device and it’s decisions like this that make me glad of that, however, it’s just the lesser of two evils right now. Both mobile platforms are making scary decisions lately and my faith in them decreases daily. I’m going to start supporting pine and any other open alternatives more. Pine is the only mobile platform I’m even vaguely optimistic about.

>I use an Apple device and it’s decisions like this that make me glad of that, however, it’s just the lesser of two evils right now.

Be aware that while it's possible for Android users to download Fediverse apps from an alternative app store like F-Droid instead, the same would not be possible on an Apple device if Apple were to do the same.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#776

Post by pfraze »

querez wrote: post #733
pfraze wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturing consent online is dependent on the rules of the game. Russian-bot-syndrome is a fraud issue, in this case a state actor manipulating the 1-person-1-voice assumption of the game. If we're making a marketplace metaphor, then this market is being tilted toward actors with the resources to pay for bots, workers, or influencers. It's not like it's limited to Russia; Bloomberg was somewhat showy during the pr…

> Bloomberg was somewhat showy during the primary about paying people to tweet for him I'm genuinely curious, do you have any more details or sources on this?

This is what my googling pulled up, which matches my memory of it: https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2020-02-23...

It was an interesting situation because in some ways, I prefer the transparency involved? But it's sort of like any sale of an account, even if temporary - it seems disingenuous by nature. Almost like how an MLM makes you sell to your friends.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#777

Post by rightbyte »

bluthru wrote: post #766
rightbyte wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historic revisionism as an subgroup of hate speech is a prime example of slippery slope and moving of definition. I would add "fake news" to hate speech.

>I would add "fake news" to hate speech. What are you doing? Are you trying to ban speech you don't like? What body determines what is "fake news" and "hate speech"? It can't be done, which is why the only sane policy is free speech. We have laws against violence, and it's a very clear line.

Sorry, it was meant as rhetorical stupidity.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#778

Post by bsder »

avivo wrote: post #482
humanistbot wrote: post #47

The rationale they gave is that hate speech appears on these apps, because some of the microblogging sites that can be accessed via Fediverse have this kind of content. Based on this rationale, I look forward to Google Play removing Chrome, Firefox, and all other web browsers from the store as well.

This sort of decision by Google does make me rather uncomfortable (the entire situation is uncomfortable... https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/12/20691957/mastodon-decentr... ). But it's worth understanding why the situation may be a bit more complicated than is described above. What seems to be happening is not an absolute ban on Fediverse apps , but a ban on specific implementations that make it easy to join specific…

The problem I have isn't that Google bans these apps.

The problem is the fact that Google banning these apps borders on state censorship because of the monopolistic position Google has.

Busting up Google solves the correct problem.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#779

Post by strken »

avivo wrote: post #482
humanistbot wrote: post #47

The rationale they gave is that hate speech appears on these apps, because some of the microblogging sites that can be accessed via Fediverse have this kind of content. Based on this rationale, I look forward to Google Play removing Chrome, Firefox, and all other web browsers from the store as well.

This sort of decision by Google does make me rather uncomfortable (the entire situation is uncomfortable... https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/12/20691957/mastodon-decentr... ). But it's worth understanding why the situation may be a bit more complicated than is described above. What seems to be happening is not an absolute ban on Fediverse apps , but a ban on specific implementations that make it easy to join specific…

It concerns me that the company taking down the apps also owns my entire mobile OS from browser to network stack, as well as the DNS resolver, the search engine, and the email client I use.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#780

Post by tenebrisalietum »

john-shaffer wrote: post #735
tenebrisalietum wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kindly take this as a devils advocate post before you reflexively downvote. It looks like letting people say anything they want on major social media platforms is only having one major positive effect: a few advertising companies are becoming very rich. The negative effects include: - incited violence (gang-oriented gun crime in Chicago is often fanned by social media posts for example) - bad medical decisions (vacci…

Which powerful, privileged people should get to decide what we are allowed to hear about? When the power is inevitably abused, how can we address that abuse when we may not be allowed to know about it? Is it even necessary for free speech to directly result in a happier humanity? What if it simply preserves the conditions that we need for progress, or merely keeps us from sliding backwards? Would that be enough to ma…

> Which powerful, privileged people should get to decide what we are allowed to hear about?

Journalists and news media, bound by the respect and principles of their profession, fulfilled this function in the past. There seemed to be a time in the past where division between reporting and editorials were more separate. We've destroyed the institution of news media without a good replacement; now people are taking editorials (people's social media posts) as the equivalent of news.

> Is it even necessary for free speech to directly result in a happier humanity?

If not then what is it worth?

> What if it simply preserves the conditions that we need for progress

I'm simply not seeing how social media after a good 10 years of it is progressing anything other than the profits of its owners.

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