Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#821

Post by querez » Fri, Aug 28, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

pfraze wrote: post #733

quanticle wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is true then that suggests that the efforts of the establishment to rein the big social media companies will prove largely ineffective with the result that Facebook, Google, etc, will probably join the New York Times, Harvard, etc, as part of the governing structure of the US. That's exactly what "reining in" looks like. Instead of being an alternative to, e.g. the New York Times and opposing the next Iraq wa…

Manufacturing consent online is dependent on the rules of the game. Russian-bot-syndrome is a fraud issue, in this case a state actor manipulating the 1-person-1-voice assumption of the game. If we're making a marketplace metaphor, then this market is being tilted toward actors with the resources to pay for bots, workers, or influencers. It's not like it's limited to Russia; Bloomberg was somewhat showy during the pr…

> Bloomberg was somewhat showy during the primary about paying people to tweet for him

I'm genuinely curious, do you have any more details or sources on this?

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#822

Post by thelean12 » Fri, Aug 28, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

djeiasbsbo wrote: post #705

thelean12 wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have any of the Fediverse apps that were banned from the app store done anything to prevent the issues that you say Facebook and Twitter have? I'll take the simple banning of a harmful server on their app as a way to change my mind on this issue.

They have done exactly that multiple times. For example, the app Tusky has a hardcoded list of hate-speech instances for which the login is blocked, to just give you one example. Other than that, the instances themselves simply choose not to federate with questionable instances. This happens in an almost organic way where if an instance refuses to block federation with another questionable instance, other instances w…

I asked about the apps that were banned from the play store. Tusky is still available on play store. Maybe their hardcoded list of hate-speech instances were enough for Google to keep them on the play store?

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#823

Post by john-shaffer » Fri, Aug 28, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

tenebrisalietum wrote: post #250

mc32 wrote: post #95

It always starts like that. People agree to very sensible things. Like hate speech is bad and it’s not censorship if it’s not mandated by the government. Eventually the definition of hate or whatever it is that’s offensive is very removed from the original meaning, and now we all bear the brunt of the sensible people who with best intentions wanted to make things better.

Kindly take this as a devils advocate post before you reflexively downvote. It looks like letting people say anything they want on major social media platforms is only having one major positive effect: a few advertising companies are becoming very rich. The negative effects include: - incited violence (gang-oriented gun crime in Chicago is often fanned by social media posts for example) - bad medical decisions (vacci…

Which powerful, privileged people should get to decide what we are allowed to hear about? When the power is inevitably abused, how can we address that abuse when we may not be allowed to know about it?

Is it even necessary for free speech to directly result in a happier humanity? What if it simply preserves the conditions that we need for progress, or merely keeps us from sliding backwards? Would that be enough to make it worthwhile for you?

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#824

Post by dang » Fri, Aug 28, 2020, 9:24 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #95

It always starts like that. People agree to very sensible things. Like hate speech is bad and it’s not censorship if it’s not mandated by the government. Eventually the definition of hate or whatever it is that’s offensive is very removed from the original meaning, and now we all bear the brunt of the sensible people who with best intentions wanted to make things better.

(We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24305296)

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#825

Post by nvahalik » Fri, Aug 28, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

gwbrooks wrote: post #787

dalbasal wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constitutions are squishy things, ultimately. They evolve over the years. I take your point about legality. But, I'd make the point that we don't have a clear moral or legal concept of free speech that relates to the current world. "We can argue about whether or not Google should ban certain opinions on their platform, or where the line should be drawn, but it is arguable that hey have the legal right to do so." At s…

> Constitutions are squishy things, ultimately. They evolve over the years. They're really not -- or shouldn't be. Certainly not when you have a textualist/originalist majority on the court charged with deciding what is and isn't constitutional. I get your broader point that societies and norms change. But the last thing any of us should want is a constitution that is lightly referenced and broadly interpreted becaus…

Agree. To extend your argument, we find that over the years that the application of the constitution has to be understood in new contexts. It doesn't evolve, but how it is understood to apply is discussed and what it covers does. That's why textualism/originalism is important: if we understand what someone said and why they said it, we can better represent the intention of the rule here, several hundred years later.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#826

Post by dang » Fri, Aug 28, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

thomascgalvin wrote: post #169

> Like hate speech is bad and it’s not censorship if it’s not mandated by the government. To be fully accurate, this is absolutely censorship , but it's not a violation of anyone's First Amendment rights. People often conflate the two. We can argue about whether or not Google should ban certain opinions on their platform, or where the line should be drawn, but it is arguable that hey have the legal right to do so. An…

(We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24305473)

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#827

Post by cm2187 » Fri, Aug 28, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

thomascgalvin wrote: post #169

> Like hate speech is bad and it’s not censorship if it’s not mandated by the government. To be fully accurate, this is absolutely censorship , but it's not a violation of anyone's First Amendment rights. People often conflate the two. We can argue about whether or not Google should ban certain opinions on their platform, or where the line should be drawn, but it is arguable that hey have the legal right to do so. An…

I am sure the local water or electricity company can’t refuse to provide you the service because they don’t like your politics. And the gay wedding cake controversy. Those platforms that operate like a quasi monopoly (search, social network, mobile services, internet service providers) could very well be treated like utility companies or something intermediate with a similar obligation not to use their dominant position to control speech in the country.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#828

Post by rvnx » Fri, Aug 28, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

feanaro wrote: post #812

avivo wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of decision by Google does make me rather uncomfortable (the entire situation is uncomfortable... https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/12/20691957/mastodon-decentr... ). But it's worth understanding why the situation may be a bit more complicated than is described above. What seems to be happening is not an absolute ban on Fediverse apps , but a ban on specific implementations that make it easy to join specific…

It's a bit silly to emphasize specific communities if this results in a ban of the entire app or network. ~all apps and networks have some communities like that. I don't think this is a complex question at all, this is just bad.

The same with Discord or Slack that could be removed, or Facebook

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#829

Post by bastardoperator » Fri, Aug 28, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

birdboy2000 wrote: post #795

bastardoperator wrote: post #758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't even have to argue about it. Folks agree to a legal binding contract that can likely be altered at any time for any reason and I'm willing to bet verbiage about yanking apps for any reason is well defined too. Decided to look, pretty clear. "Google may make changes to this Agreement at any time with notice to Developer" and "Google may terminate this Agreement with You immediately upon written notice"

Corporate monopolies can easily force one-sided contracts on users, but that's just a reflection of their market power. In a perfect world judges would rule them unenforceable, in our world corporations fund the people who appoint judges.

I don't see anyone be forced to engage with Google, and it's not as if the play store doesn't provide value back to developers. It's enforceable because it isn't one sided. In a perfect would we hold the legislators accountable for this mess since they're the ones writing these laws.

Re: Google is apparently taking down all/most Fediverse apps from the Play Store

#830

Post by Fellshard » Fri, Aug 28, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

egypturnash wrote: post #265

newacct583 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't remove Podcast Addict, it's right here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bambuna.po... That was a mistake, presumably. It's likely this is too. The deep desire on the part of posters here to assume malice and scream CENSORSHIP is really off-putting. I actually don't know anything about fediverse, but if it's like other pseudoanonymous obscure communications media it's probably filled with…

The fediverse is very split, you have some servers that are run by people who post straight up Nazi symbolism on their admin accounts, and you have some servers that have admins who will happily participate in piling on someone for appearing Insufficiently Woke. I block both kinds on my server because I just want a nice quiet place to talk with my friends, and that's a definite segment of the Fediverse too.

This much is key to observe: this isn't a partisan maneuver by Google, as much as people may want to slot it into that. It smells much more like a control maneuver: a perceived competitor.