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Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#231

Post by taurath »

finnthehuman wrote: post #150
taurath wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I must say, though this thought is controversial. If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Not personal guilt, as few even living today are directly responsible for the systems that came before. But guilt from being born into privilege in a society built entirely to benefit you, from the net worth of your parents, to the quiet mono-racial neighborhoo…

>If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel I've never been a fan of the accusation that social justice uses "original sin" as an argumentative tactic, but here you are unambiguously using inherited sin. Obviously people have a duty to live their lives honorably, but saddling someone with that kind of free floating guilt and anxiety seems like an attempt at setting them up f…

The point I was trying to make was not to feel guilt for yourself, but you SHOULD be aware of the advantages the sins of your ancestors have given you. And I would argue you have a responsibility to make up for them, in terms of righting the systemic wrongs. It was not my intent to place moral culpability here, though I understand how its easy to read that. None of that means you need to have free floating guilt and anxiety. But an awareness should naturally lend itself to wanting to help.

The truth is most people aren't aware of history at all. So many believe, internally, that there is a natural order or a superiority based on the economic and social outcomes they see. The more one knows about the true level of violence even in the recent history of the US, the more outraged one should become.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#232

Post by stallmanite »

TeaDrunk wrote: post #213
adnzzzzZ wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People's actions are rarely with real justice or malice in intention. Most of the time it is nuances of grey, thoughtlessly. My point is that thoughtlessness is by definition evil and that working under that assumption is better than not. You disagree and that's fine. We won't really reach an agreement over this by arguing I don't think.

You haven't addressed the thing I'm confused about. I can do things thoughtlessly and people thank me for being helpful. This goes against your statement that goodness cannot happen without just intent.

I have had the same experience as you of thoughtlessly doing things that benefit others and had the same objection as you to his statement. For what it’s worth I think you are correct.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#233

Post by taurath »

belorn wrote: post #113
taurath wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I must say, though this thought is controversial. If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Not personal guilt, as few even living today are directly responsible for the systems that came before. But guilt from being born into privilege in a society built entirely to benefit you, from the net worth of your parents, to the quiet mono-racial neighborhoo…

To quote a song, I'm not going to spend my life being a color.

But will you spend your life trying to be completely unaware of your color? Such is a possibility only afforded white folks.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#234

Post by tick_tock_tick »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #79
moon4u wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also think most activists are aware of this. I'm sorry, but how did you come to this conclusion? The first thing that comes to mind is the new tactic used by activist, saying something to the effect of "If you are not doing something to prevent racism, then you are guilty of being racist." Which is what (I believe) lead to this thing: https://www.businessinsider.com/white-protesters-confront-di...

I think there's a distinction in terminology here. "Activist" generally (among people I talk to at least!) refers to activist organizers, who mostly agree that stunts like this are both bad and strategically unhelpful. Unfortunately, it's in the nature of community organizing that sometimes the community goes off script.

There whole point was that's not off script but rather exactly what the whole "silence is violence" is.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#235

Post by renewiltord »

autosharp wrote: post #149
renewiltord wrote: post #63

Wait, this is great. It means the guilt trip is very good at entrenching a viewpoint. So if you want to fuck someone over, find something he's doing that's hurting him and guilt trip him till he doubles down. You can do this at the whole society level: for instance, no society that underemploys some large fraction of its populace will effectively compete against an equivalent one with efficient workplace participatio…

> no society that underemploys some large fraction of its populace will effectively compete against an equivalent one with efficient workplace participation. But this is not necessarily a good thing. Labor participation of an enslaved group is surely higher and they work more hours per day... Nor is it clear that other ethical practices outgrow societies that don't practice those ethics, e.g. China (and many other ex…

The word 'efficient' is intended to be significant in the quoted sentence. Efficient labour participation is different. It means that a guy who can become a lawyer performs law. It means that a guy who can operate as a bricklayer lays bricks. And it means that a guy whose peak is unskilled labour is only going to perform unskilled labour. If you put your lawyers into ditch digging and your bricklayers into coffee delivery you can get 100% labour participation without efficient workplace participation.

This is commonly the flaw with Arab nations' use of their workforce of women. They are all working a lot of the time. It's just a huge waste of what they're capable of.

Slavery is similar. You just flatten everyone into unskilled labour. You lose. People will better fall on to the curve where they can participate the best in a free society than a slave society.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#236

Post by moon4u »

aeturnum wrote: post #218
moon4u wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also think most activists are aware of this. I'm sorry, but how did you come to this conclusion? The first thing that comes to mind is the new tactic used by activist, saying something to the effect of "If you are not doing something to prevent racism, then you are guilty of being racist." Which is what (I believe) lead to this thing: https://www.businessinsider.com/white-protesters-confront-di...

So, to pivot back to my tent revival example: religions often have practices that turn off outsiders, but they often simultaneously are seeking to convert those outsiders. It's a balance! I would say that "If you are not doing something to prevent racism, then you are guilty of being racist" is a message aimed squarely at those who already believe. It's urging people to do more to support the movement. It makes me th…

I don't think that you are correct. Well... maybe they do know it and are opting for an alternative approach, because guilt-tripping seems like a fairly common tactic, especially in the aforementioned activists.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#237

Post by renewiltord »

raxxorrax wrote: post #69
renewiltord wrote: post #63

Wait, this is great. It means the guilt trip is very good at entrenching a viewpoint. So if you want to fuck someone over, find something he's doing that's hurting him and guilt trip him till he doubles down. You can do this at the whole society level: for instance, no society that underemploys some large fraction of its populace will effectively compete against an equivalent one with efficient workplace participatio…

> Wait, this is great. Slave labor can be more "effective" than workers with rights.

I guess we'll see. The test is in front of us. There are nations using indentured servitude and de-facto slavery and there's the Free World. If the other guys are better at it, let's see them beat us.

I'd rather humanity survive through slavery than be extinct through freedom, but I don't think I need to make that choice since I think free people self-organize into more resilient societies so long as they do not assume too much load of taking care of the non-adapted.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#238

Post by [deleted] »

learnstats2 wrote: post #138
renewiltord wrote: post #63

Wait, this is great. It means the guilt trip is very good at entrenching a viewpoint. So if you want to fuck someone over, find something he's doing that's hurting him and guilt trip him till he doubles down. You can do this at the whole society level: for instance, no society that underemploys some large fraction of its populace will effectively compete against an equivalent one with efficient workplace participatio…

I find it informative that you want to fuck "him" over with intentional planning for the continued oppression of women.

[deleted]

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#239

Post by [deleted] »

thatcat wrote: post #68
renewiltord wrote: post #63

Wait, this is great. It means the guilt trip is very good at entrenching a viewpoint. So if you want to fuck someone over, find something he's doing that's hurting him and guilt trip him till he doubles down. You can do this at the whole society level: for instance, no society that underemploys some large fraction of its populace will effectively compete against an equivalent one with efficient workplace participatio…

Beat them at what though?

[deleted]

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#240

Post by didibus »

jagrsw wrote: post #76
didibus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". Another good one I'm trying recently is: "You're right to think that given the information you know, and here's some more information you should consider." Oh and: "That's a great hypothesis, here's another one."

> I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". How does it work with e.g.? A: 2+2=5 B: Yes and.... I've seen this advice in some local guideline for holding effective meetings, but there are certain scenarios where saying 'yes and' or 'this might be true from your POV, but please consider' feels more like trying to manipulate someone than just trying to figure out something (…

A: 2+2=5

B: Yes, and I believe it's 4.

This is a mutually respectful dialogue. You don't pretend to know better. You're just each sharing your ideas, and if they conflict, you'll open a dialogue into why they think it is 5? And here's why I think it is 4. And then you can both try to resolve the conflict and see why you think differently and what the correct answer actually is now that you've considered both.

In your example, it might seem a bit silly, because of how certain we all are that 2+2=4. That said for anything less clear cut, you can really see where saying "Yes and" is better.

A: Unit tests are more important than integ tests.

B: Yes, and I believe integ tests add more value than unit tests.

That said, it really depends who you're talking too. If someone is super open minded and welcomes disagreement and are constantly trying to test their knowledge, you probably won't need any of this. But if someone is less receptive, less confident, has a big ego, etc., Then you do need to manipulate their emotions to have them be more receptive.

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