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Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#211

Post by adnzzzzZ »

TeaDrunk wrote: post #210
adnzzzzZ wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People's mistakes happen in the most offhanded ways. Swept along from moment to moment, they fall into evil. Without reason, consideration or dedication, the next thing they know they're on the wrong path as if it were the only one. Yet by contrast, "I was doing the right thing without realizing it", "The next thing I knew, I was doing good deeds", "In a moment of carelessness, I helped someone". You never hear those…

> Yet by contrast, "I was doing the right thing without realizing it", "The next thing I knew, I was doing good deeds", "In a moment of carelessness, I helped someone". You never hear those things and you surely never will. I disagree with this statement. I carelessly do things and people tend to thank me for my kindness and helpfulness, even though I was never intending to do it. People will do the right things with…

>People's actions are rarely with real justice or malice in intention. Most of the time it is nuances of grey, thoughtlessly.

My point is that thoughtlessness is by definition evil and that working under that assumption is better than not. You disagree and that's fine. We won't really reach an agreement over this by arguing I don't think.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#212

Post by orestarod »

guerrilla wrote: post #100
peltier wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it. Why is the emphasis on white people and not wealth? There are so many different historical groups of "white people" I completely fail to take a submissive approach to the whole us race debate. Sure you guys have massive issues that stem from a long line of segregationist policies. Europe has its problems, but implying that…

> Why is the emphasis on white people and not wealth? Because that's who has wealth [1] and they have it because they stole it from other groups via forced labor and literal theft of land and other resources and then explicitly disadvantaged them in post facto competition. [1]. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/black-white-us-f...

The ruling class stole these, not "white people". Throughout the history and the world, all places and races had their own class of oppressors, surprise - usually from the same race as the oppressed, and of course from a very wide racial variety. That US were built first from white colonists, who set the precedent for that place, does not mean whites are any different that other races in oppression. The ruling class also stole their wealth from the working class, including the white people in it, and if your aim is to bring equal racial representation, or a change on the dominant race, in the ruling class, rather than the abolishment of the present social and economoc structure, you are just maintaining the current situation and playing the capitalists' game.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#213

Post by TeaDrunk »

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #211
TeaDrunk wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet by contrast, "I was doing the right thing without realizing it", "The next thing I knew, I was doing good deeds", "In a moment of carelessness, I helped someone". You never hear those things and you surely never will. I disagree with this statement. I carelessly do things and people tend to thank me for my kindness and helpfulness, even though I was never intending to do it. People will do the right things with…

>People's actions are rarely with real justice or malice in intention. Most of the time it is nuances of grey, thoughtlessly. My point is that thoughtlessness is by definition evil and that working under that assumption is better than not. You disagree and that's fine. We won't really reach an agreement over this by arguing I don't think.

You haven't addressed the thing I'm confused about. I can do things thoughtlessly and people thank me for being helpful. This goes against your statement that goodness cannot happen without just intent.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#214

Post by SamBam »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #205
SamBam wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am saying that doing actions that are actually pro-social -- "virtuous," if you will -- such as reducing pollution, are not "virtue signaling," or at least not with the negative connotation the term has taken on in the past decade, which generally implies hollow statements without value. When I hear someone look at somebody doing something good in the world, and dismiss them as mere "virtue signaling," it tells me…

It’s entirely possible that a person is riding their electric scooter to advertise their virtuous concern for the environment (ignoring how likely this is to be true for any given scooterist) AND that someone else is being a shitty person for being dismissive. Note that the dismissive person is specifically shitty for doing their own virtue signaling—hollowly criticizing someone else to signal their own virtue. Of co…

I guess I just don't care about baselessly speculating the motivation someone may have for the positive thing they are doing.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#215

Post by hackeraccount »

dcolkitt wrote: post #182

Once again modern psychology confirms the intuitive wisdom of Dale Carnegie. The very first maxim in How to Win Friends and Influence People is "don't criticize, condemn of complain". And the reason for this: " When dealing with people, remember you are not dealing with creatures of logic, but with creatures bristling with prejudice and motivated by pride and vanity... "

I like Adam Smith's version in The Theory of Moral Sentiment. People want to be loved and to be worthy of love. People will act if they think they're actions will promote both of those things.

It kind of gets at the limitations of flattery too - people will re-act positively up to a point (they want to be loved and what's flattery if not a declaration of love?) but if they suspect that they're not worthy of the love being offered then they'll reject it.

Guilt trips are frequently the reverse of that. They put too much emphasis on what it takes to be worthy of love but not enough that doing whatever if it is will cause the person to be loved. But then again if you believe someone is doing something wrong it's possible you might make that person understand they're doing something wrong - it's a lot harder to convince them you'll like them for not doing it. People understand resentment too much I think.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#216

Post by stared »

cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

In Nonviolent Communication by Marshal Rosenberg (nice summary: https://medium.com/s/please-advise/the-essential-guide-to-di...), instilling guilt (and shame) is considered to be a violent way of communicating. First, I had a problem with this definition of violence. Then I saw it fits the framework of violence: "either you do as we say, or we will intentionally make you suffer".

I say "we" because, in many cases, it is not a single individual but a community or any social group.

Jewish and Catholic cultures are famous for their guilt-driven development approach to upbringing: https://thetylt.com/culture/catholic-guilt-or-jewish-guilt

To be clear, guilt sometimes makes sense as a deterrent. But let's not use it lightly.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#217

Post by throwaway894345 »

SamBam wrote: post #214
throwaway894345 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s entirely possible that a person is riding their electric scooter to advertise their virtuous concern for the environment (ignoring how likely this is to be true for any given scooterist) AND that someone else is being a shitty person for being dismissive. Note that the dismissive person is specifically shitty for doing their own virtue signaling—hollowly criticizing someone else to signal their own virtue. Of co…

I guess I just don't care about baselessly speculating the motivation someone may have for the positive thing they are doing.

Yeah, I generally agree. Speculating about motives is a bad deal, per my above comment.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#218

Post by aeturnum »

moon4u wrote: post #66
aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

> I also think most activists are aware of this. I'm sorry, but how did you come to this conclusion? The first thing that comes to mind is the new tactic used by activist, saying something to the effect of "If you are not doing something to prevent racism, then you are guilty of being racist." Which is what (I believe) lead to this thing: https://www.businessinsider.com/white-protesters-confront-di...

So, to pivot back to my tent revival example: religions often have practices that turn off outsiders, but they often simultaneously are seeking to convert those outsiders. It's a balance!

I would say that "If you are not doing something to prevent racism, then you are guilty of being racist" is a message aimed squarely at those who already believe. It's urging people to do more to support the movement.

It makes me think of "All people are sinners except those saved by Jesus Christ." Both in that it's somewhat alienating to outsiders and that the people making the statements are quite serious about them!

Activists know this! They know that it would be better for recruitment to have a purely positive message to give people. That's just not where the movement is right now.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#219

Post by Dirlewanger »

dx87 wrote: post #174
darth_avocado wrote: post #6

"you're wrong" - Best way to win over someone you disagree with

That ranks right up there with "You do realize that X, right?" It's like, not only am I going to tell you you're wrong, but I'm also going to imply it's because you're too stupid to have put any thought into your opinion.

Twitter Discourse 101

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#220

Post by aeturnum »

shireboy wrote: post #195
aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

> Just like a tent revival, sinners are welcome as long as they already want to repent, but there's not going to be a lot there to make you feel good if you aren't a believer. I think this is a really good analogy I'd not thought of, but incorrect in the last part. I think there are (and historically, were [1]) plenty of casual participants in tent revivals, made to feel good because they are collectively part of som…

Yah, the comparison is pretty reductive to tent revivals (which, as you say, are diverse and not always fire-and-brimstone affairs).

There have also been people combining activism and protest with street fairs and free food (which makes me think of evangelical tent revivals), but that's been muted since the pandemic.

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