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Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#131

Post by throwaway316943 »

pinopinopino wrote: post #115
raxxorrax wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the corporate world we learn to take everything we can get and are rewarded for it. For our direct benefit like compensation. Not saying understatement isn't something a good image of a leader requires today, but most people know it is dishonest in practice and are just fine with keeping up appearances. Why should I not apply that to the resources of our environment? Future generations? Right, they will be okay as…

>Conservatives were the original environment protectors in the US. Probably politics that drove them away from it. In the current political climate dogmatism is spread pretty evenly. I like this observation. We should drive them back again though. I think they are not that hard to move if you bring the message in the correct way.

Conservatives are by nature conservative. They prefer gradual change to over night revolution. They want to see the proof that something will work. Instead of saying “we must eliminate the internal combustion engine” say “we must continue to improve the automobile” and instead of “we need a green economy” “we need an efficient and independent economy”. You do have to live up to your words though, conservatives are also very detail oriented and will call you out if you don’t deliver.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#132

Post by pbhjpbhj »

depressedpanda wrote: post #102
taurath wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I must say, though this thought is controversial. If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Not personal guilt, as few even living today are directly responsible for the systems that came before. But guilt from being born into privilege in a society built entirely to benefit you, from the net worth of your parents, to the quiet mono-racial neighborhoo…

> If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Nonsense. You should feel thankful. Thankful that you had the luck being born in the most prosperous time in human history, where you have access to better healthcare, transportation, human rights and democratic privileges, to name just a few. Once you realize how good it is to live in this day and age and feel…

So feel guilty that you don't feel thankful, but only if you're white?

You know that skin colour doesn't make you immune to poverty, or disease, or any adversity?

Your comment comes across as supporting the parent comment; and as exceptionally racist.

Almost certainly some kids living in USA didn't eat today. Your comment sounds like "well starving white kids can just eat their privilege".

I don't understand why you're all so obsessed with skin colour and not with actuality of real people.

Are the powerful people in USA principally white men, I don't doubt it. Don't let your ire at such inequality make you racist.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#133

Post by gwd »

taurath wrote: post #65
peterpeppers wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting point. Martin Luther King Jr spoke quite a bit about addressing GUILT before he was killed. Unfortunately for all of us, he was incredibly unpopular before his death due to his position on the Vietnam War so his message on guilt is lost to transcripts. QUOTE: "The Negro needs the white man to save him from his fears, the white man needs the Negro to save him from his GUILT. We are tied together in so many…

And I must say, though this thought is controversial. If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Not personal guilt, as few even living today are directly responsible for the systems that came before. But guilt from being born into privilege in a society built entirely to benefit you, from the net worth of your parents, to the quiet mono-racial neighborhoo…

I think the best clarification of this is to separate out fault from responsibility; and the analogy to explain was snow on your sidewalk. Is it your fault that there's a foot of snow and ice on the walkways in front of your house? No -- you had no control over that. Is it your responsibility to shovel it / put out salt to prevent people from falling and hurting themselves? Yes.

Similarly, if you're white and/or well-off, is it your fault that things are tilted your way? No. Is it your responsibility to try to do something to make the field more level? Yes.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#134

Post by throwaway316943 »

pdamoc wrote: post #41
ccleve wrote: post #25

Lovely. A psychological study on how to manipulate people into supporting your social agenda. How about using, you know, reason? Treating them like adults? Give them pros and cons so they can make a rational decision?

We are more animal than human. In other words, our emotional brain is far larger and far faster than the neocortex. There are far fewer "adults" than you might think. As one spiritual master said: "Most people tell you they want to get out of kindergarten, but don’t believe them. Don’t believe them! All they want you to do is to mend their broken toys. “Give me back my wife. Give me back my job. Give me back my money…

Everyone is capable of growing into an “adult”. There are a lot of perverse incentives in our society that prevent this. There’s a lot of stuff that needs to be undone before we can all continue to move forward.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#135

Post by nicoburns »

guerrilla wrote: post #87
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you self-flagellate for being born in the situation you are in? How would that benefit anyone? Guilt is a negative emotion, and in my opinion you shouldn't have to do penance for things you have no control over. Instead, you can use your position of privilege to do good in whatever way fits. My small contribution, I run an online community (~1000 members in our Discord server) with a zero tolerance policy on r…

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

> You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into.

Do I? I'd be (genuinely) interested to know what kind of power you think I have to change the system. Because from my perspective as a middle class white person I feel just as powerless to change the system as everyone else.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#136

Post by throwaway316943 »

Nursie wrote: post #88
ccleve wrote: post #25

Lovely. A psychological study on how to manipulate people into supporting your social agenda. How about using, you know, reason? Treating them like adults? Give them pros and cons so they can make a rational decision?

> Give them pros and cons so they can make a rational decision? If that actually worked we wouldn't be having this conversation. People, particularly in large groups, use emotion, tribalism and ego protection over reason. If reason and fact worked well to change minds, we wouldn't have idiots "rolling coal".

People “roll coal” because they perceive your ham handed attempts at reasoning with them as an attempt to force them into a sudden change that will probably have some immediate negative consequences for them. It’s a defensive reaction provoked by attacking them.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#137

Post by nicoburns »

roenxi wrote: post #91
aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

> I see the Social Justice left as being in a phase like "young atheists"[2] or young gay people go through when they first embrace their identity: loud and proud and insistent that others recognize their validity. Can this get expanded on a little bit? How does one recognise some else's validity? I get the simultaneous feeling that leaving them alone isn't what they want, and me waving my hands and pronouncing them…

> How does one recognise some else's validity?

This means things like recognising that being gay is a thing, that it's a normal and perfectly ok way to be, and that the person in question is in fact gay and accepted into the group as such.

It's the opposite of the kind of parenting that makes people nervous to "come out" (which many gay kids will have grown up in).

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#138

Post by learnstats2 »

renewiltord wrote: post #63

Wait, this is great. It means the guilt trip is very good at entrenching a viewpoint. So if you want to fuck someone over, find something he's doing that's hurting him and guilt trip him till he doubles down. You can do this at the whole society level: for instance, no society that underemploys some large fraction of its populace will effectively compete against an equivalent one with efficient workplace participatio…

I find it informative that you want to fuck "him" over with intentional planning for the continued oppression of women.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#139

Post by [deleted] »

cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

[deleted]

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#140

Post by himinlomax »

aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

> I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support.

The opposite of guilt-tripping is not "positive, uplifting." Let's take a contemporary example:

Guilt-tripping: "when you don't wear a mask you're KILLING grandma."

Positive, uplifting (and also BS): "those new designer masks are so cute and trendy!"

Using social proof without guilt tripping: "as more and more people make the effort to wear mask, we stand a chance to stop this deadly disease."

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