Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 268 posts

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#191

Post by throwaway0a5e »

skrap wrote: post #148
throwaway316943 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People “roll coal” because they perceive your ham handed attempts at reasoning with them as an attempt to force them into a sudden change that will probably have some immediate negative consequences for them. It’s a defensive reaction provoked by attacking them.

I don't think that's the full picture. I think people "roll coal" because they get pleasure from causing frustration by their actions. It's all about "owning the libs" or similar. I drive a prius, and several times I have seen coal rollers cross several lanes of traffic to sit in front of me with their stacks spewing. They don't know anything about me other than the brand of car I choose, but it's enough to make them…

>frustration by their actions.

Frustration among the people they perceive to be trying to screw them over is the key part you're missing.

>They don't know anything about me other than the brand of car I choose

Whether you like it or not the things you do, including the car you choose to buy, send a signal. The signal happens to not be accurate in your case.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#192

Post by ianai »

renewiltord wrote: post #63

Wait, this is great. It means the guilt trip is very good at entrenching a viewpoint. So if you want to fuck someone over, find something he's doing that's hurting him and guilt trip him till he doubles down. You can do this at the whole society level: for instance, no society that underemploys some large fraction of its populace will effectively compete against an equivalent one with efficient workplace participatio…

Getting people to entrench themselves into camps and beliefs seems to be a main affect of social media these days.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#193

Post by dalore »

cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

Are you not now guilt-tripping people who guilt-trip other people?

> Doing it is evil and makes you evil.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#194

Post by jonfw »

rimliu wrote: post #104
pinopinopino wrote: post #72

Ah, propaganda 101: "If you want to influence your enemy, make sure he/she sympathizes with you". I also read an interesting article about this, that conservatives do care about the environment if you give it the correct emotional cue. E.g. instead of saying they have to save the environment for the future generation (which perhaps generates a guilty feeling), we want to preserve nature to keep it as it is (which the…

I don't really get this obsession with preserving the status quo. It is not universally good and by doing so we may prevent good things from happening.

I would argue that there is a lack of understanding of how well the status quo prevents bad things from happening. We take for granted how many problems we've solved, because many of these problems didn't exist in our lifetimes.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#195

Post by shireboy »

aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

> Just like a tent revival, sinners are welcome as long as they already want to repent, but there's not going to be a lot there to make you feel good if you aren't a believer.

I think this is a really good analogy I'd not thought of, but incorrect in the last part. I think there are (and historically, were [1]) plenty of casual participants in tent revivals, made to feel good because they are collectively part of something energetic and out of the ordinary that their peers were also part of. Such person thinks consciously or subconsciously "I may not buy (or even understand) what preacher-man is shouting about, but it sure is fun be with lots of people dancing, yelling, and letting loose, and they seem to like me when I participate. Maybe if I'm even more energetic than guy next to me, I'll get even more approval from these people." Not every participant, but I have to think that was one motivation in many cases. I'll leave to others to draw parallels to present day.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#196

Post by thelittlenag »

SamBam wrote: post #178
DFHippie wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling guilt tripping manipulation is a little dramatic given that people use the expression to encompass anything that makes them feel guilty whether it's intended to or not. If you drive an efficient car, ride a bike, or walk, some people, varying numbers according to where you are, will be righteously outraged that you're guilt-tripping them. Also, "manipulation" suggests unfair trickery. If you're guilt-tripped…

Indeed. The number of times I've heard that driving an electric car or a bike is "virtue signaling" is amazing. I think, if you're so focused on the "signaling" -- the notion that someone is just doing that to provoke an emotional response -- then all that's saying to me is that it's provoking guilt in you, and that's made you feel angry.

Are you contending that virtue signalling isn't real, or that what is claimed to be virtue signaling isn't and so the phrase becomes a kind of slur?

My opinion is that virtue signalling is real, and, further, that "signalling" doesn't just have an effect on other people, it can change our own disposition.

The use of the phrase "virtue signalling" is sometimes applied in reverse, describing someone that is insufferably smug and exudes a sense of unearned moral superiority and ascribing those traits to their desire to signal their piety to others. Oddly, I find that a kindness as it means these undesirable traits have an external cause and can therefore be corrected.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#197

Post by DarkWiiPlayer »

atoav wrote: post #117
PeterStuer wrote: post #110

The carrot and stick ... it's complicated. Some people will respond better to one or the other. Also, the carrot of 'feeling good about yourself' has many nuances. An anecdote: We used to live in a village that had a few kilometers of semi-rural 2 lane road leading to it. Even though this road was outside city limits, it had many driveways and side streets on it so the speed limit was 50 km/h. At the time we had 2 ca…

I think the best approach is usually a combined one. Think about drinking and driving. Just shaming/punishing people for it isn't going to solve it, if there aren't e.g. pull factors like practical solutions to avoid driving when drunk, recognition for people who don't drink when driving needs to be done etc. I think often the worst thing is existing culture. So things like: "It is not manly/cool to wear a seatbelt."…

> I think often the worst thing is existing culture. So things like: "It is not manly/cool to wear a seatbelt." Would a Hollywood action hero wear a seatbelt? Certainly not!

In one TV show called "Forever" (spoilers, btw.) there's a nice scene where one of the characters is driving a car at gunpoint and gets out of the situation by driving into a wall and releasing the bad guys seatbelt right before impact.

There's nothing inherently uncool about seatbelts; it's just a matter of how it's presented. "Heroes don't need seatbelts to drive a car" makes as much sense as "Heroes don't need guns for a gunfight".

This proves that the rules of coolness can sometimes be shifted away from valuing recklessness. The same effect might be possible for other areas as well.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#198

Post by Nursie »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #191
skrap wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's the full picture. I think people "roll coal" because they get pleasure from causing frustration by their actions. It's all about "owning the libs" or similar. I drive a prius, and several times I have seen coal rollers cross several lanes of traffic to sit in front of me with their stacks spewing. They don't know anything about me other than the brand of car I choose, but it's enough to make them…

>frustration by their actions. Frustration among the people they perceive to be trying to screw them over is the key part you're missing. >They don't know anything about me other than the brand of car I choose Whether you like it or not the things you do, including the car you choose to buy, send a signal. The signal happens to not be accurate in your case.

> Frustration among the people they perceive to be trying to screw them over is the key part you're missing.

Right, but the original conversation was in respect to giving people the tools and information they need to make good decisions.

At this point those tools and that information has been out there for a long time.

So if they perceive that people are trying to screw them over, then we've just come full circle and proved the point - Treating them like adults and giving them pros and cons so they can make a rational decision has not worked.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#199

Post by shireboy »

pinopinopino wrote: post #72

Ah, propaganda 101: "If you want to influence your enemy, make sure he/she sympathizes with you". I also read an interesting article about this, that conservatives do care about the environment if you give it the correct emotional cue. E.g. instead of saying they have to save the environment for the future generation (which perhaps generates a guilty feeling), we want to preserve nature to keep it as it is (which the…

I'm not familiar with conservatism in the Netherlands, but I don't think that is accurate description of conservatism in the US. A conservative sees inherent value in clean air, water, land for future generations and for preservation. They are often avid fishers, hunters, outdoorspersons, and want pristine environment both for future generations and it's own sake. They simply disagree on the best ways to go about preserving the environment, and often on the tactics used by liberals (including guilt discussed above) and the proper role of government in said preservation. They like clean water as much as the next person, but don't believe that a city council banning straws at their favorite restaurant is really relevant to that goal.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#200

Post by deathcalibur »

renewiltord wrote: post #63

Wait, this is great. It means the guilt trip is very good at entrenching a viewpoint. So if you want to fuck someone over, find something he's doing that's hurting him and guilt trip him till he doubles down. You can do this at the whole society level: for instance, no society that underemploys some large fraction of its populace will effectively compete against an equivalent one with efficient workplace participatio…

Another way to spin this thought that sounds less "evil" is that you can guilt trip people over good behaviors in order to entrench the good behavior.

This sounds likely to fuck people up in the head and also to hurt your relationship, so I wouldn't do it myself but it is interesting to think about. The ends don't justify the means.

Post reply on HN