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Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#141

Post by throwaway0a5e »

didibus wrote: post #67
darth_avocado wrote: post #6

"you're wrong" - Best way to win over someone you disagree with

I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". Another good one I'm trying recently is: "You're right to think that given the information you know, and here's some more information you should consider." Oh and: "That's a great hypothesis, here's another one."

People aren't idiots. If you're just replacing "you're wrong" with doublespeak people are gonna figure it out real quick. There is no substitute for engaging in Quality(TM) communication with people even if the end result is disagreement.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#142

Post by zaarn »

cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

This isn't about manipulating to have people do something for you. The article is about people feeling guilty for throwing trash on the ground instead of in the trash can.

If that is evil then I don't know where your morality is centered around but certainly not "morally neutral".

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#143

Post by nicoffeine »

depressedpanda wrote: post #102
taurath wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I must say, though this thought is controversial. If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Not personal guilt, as few even living today are directly responsible for the systems that came before. But guilt from being born into privilege in a society built entirely to benefit you, from the net worth of your parents, to the quiet mono-racial neighborhoo…

> If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Nonsense. You should feel thankful. Thankful that you had the luck being born in the most prosperous time in human history, where you have access to better healthcare, transportation, human rights and democratic privileges, to name just a few. Once you realize how good it is to live in this day and age and feel…

> Thankful that you had the luck being born in the most prosperous time in human history, where you have access to better healthcare, transportation, human rights and democratic privileges, to name just a few.

That's the whole point - people in poverty do not have many of these privileges. They don't have access to good education, healthcare, transportation, and they are consistently denied their human rights. After growing up without these privileges, they are funneled into dead-end jobs or prison. Minimizing the injustice to saying they are "a bit less fortunate" is frankly disgusting.

MLK said "large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity." That is just as true today as it was fifty years ago.

The fact is the US Government promised to keep treaties with indigenous Americans, and it didn't. It promised 40 acres to every survivor of slavery, and that was never delivered. What's the value of all the real estate in America plus 400 years of enslaved labor? Probably a lot less than what their descendants are asking for today.

So don't feel guilty. Be responsible. Be accountable. Do the right thing, and recognize that as a beneficiary you owe some of that debt.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#144

Post by sharpneli »

peltier wrote: post #96
guerrilla wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

>white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it. Why is the emphasis on white people and not wealth? There are so many different historical groups of "white people" I completely fail to take a submissive approach to the whole us race debate. Sure you guys have massive issues that stem from a long line of segregationist policies. Europe has its problems, but implying that…

It’s a handy ideology. It allows Californians to feel super enlightened while having a ridiculous homeless population at the same time.

Precisely by making it a race issue instead of wealth distribution/class issue it becomes easier to shut people down who would support social programs, mostly by driving the well meaning masses into looking at it from the race perspective.

Keeping it as a race issue keeps the lower classes on eachothers throats. Heck I’ve seen arguments that Oprah, a billionare, is less privileged than a white hobo, because whiteness. And because it’s not about money but literally the amount of melanin in your skin there is no need to care about the money part.

Otherwise I wouldn’t care less what the yanks do but due to the large cultural dominance they have the issues spill to outside of US.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#146

Post by throwanem »

peltier wrote: post #96
guerrilla wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have no control over Faulty assumption here. You do have control over maintaining the system of privilege that you were born into. That's how it continues from generation to generation, by white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it.

>white people holding on to their money and power instead of working on ways to distribute it. Why is the emphasis on white people and not wealth? There are so many different historical groups of "white people" I completely fail to take a submissive approach to the whole us race debate. Sure you guys have massive issues that stem from a long line of segregationist policies. Europe has its problems, but implying that…

The most well known mind behind the modern form of that equation is that of Lee Atwater, one of the architects of the Republican "Southern Strategy" [1]. But using race to divide people who would otherwise be unacceptably likely to recognize and act on a common class interest is the oldest play in America, and it's always wild - by which I mean "unsurprising, but regrettable" - to see other white leftists in 2020 still falling for it.

Do better, y'all.

[1] https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwa...

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#147

Post by animal_spirits »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #132
depressedpanda wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Nonsense. You should feel thankful. Thankful that you had the luck being born in the most prosperous time in human history, where you have access to better healthcare, transportation, human rights and democratic privileges, to name just a few. Once you realize how good it is to live in this day and age and feel…

So feel guilty that you don't feel thankful, but only if you're white? You know that skin colour doesn't make you immune to poverty, or disease, or any adversity? Your comment comes across as supporting the parent comment; and as exceptionally racist. Almost certainly some kids living in USA didn't eat today. Your comment sounds like "well starving white kids can just eat their privilege". I don't understand why you'…

The whole point of the posted article is to _not_ guilt people in to doing the right thing. You should push positive emotions about doing the right thing, not negative emotions.

From the article: "These findings suggest that inducing people to consider positive rather than negative self-directed emotions might recruit more people to a climate-change mitigation agenda, and to prosocial behaviour more broadly."

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#148

Post by skrap »

throwaway316943 wrote: post #136
Nursie wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Give them pros and cons so they can make a rational decision? If that actually worked we wouldn't be having this conversation. People, particularly in large groups, use emotion, tribalism and ego protection over reason. If reason and fact worked well to change minds, we wouldn't have idiots "rolling coal".

People “roll coal” because they perceive your ham handed attempts at reasoning with them as an attempt to force them into a sudden change that will probably have some immediate negative consequences for them. It’s a defensive reaction provoked by attacking them.

I don't think that's the full picture. I think people "roll coal" because they get pleasure from causing frustration by their actions. It's all about "owning the libs" or similar.

I drive a prius, and several times I have seen coal rollers cross several lanes of traffic to sit in front of me with their stacks spewing. They don't know anything about me other than the brand of car I choose, but it's enough to make them go out of their way. It's got to be a positive reinforcement mechanism.

I think the reason why you can't have a rational discussion is that it will play directly into this cycle! Give someone a choice between an uncomfortable analysis of their own behavior versus a pleasurable peel out with yet another frustrated do-gooder in their wake, and they'll choose the latter each time.

Honestly I think they'll just have to get bored before they stop.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#149

Post by autosharp »

renewiltord wrote: post #63

Wait, this is great. It means the guilt trip is very good at entrenching a viewpoint. So if you want to fuck someone over, find something he's doing that's hurting him and guilt trip him till he doubles down. You can do this at the whole society level: for instance, no society that underemploys some large fraction of its populace will effectively compete against an equivalent one with efficient workplace participatio…

> no society that underemploys some large fraction of its populace will effectively compete against an equivalent one with efficient workplace participation.

But this is not necessarily a good thing. Labor participation of an enslaved group is surely higher and they work more hours per day...

Nor is it clear that other ethical practices outgrow societies that don't practice those ethics, e.g. China (and many other examples) and democracy.

Nor would you want to entrench a non-ethical viewpoint when it comes to nuclear warfare ( first strike / nonproliferation) / climate change.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#150

Post by finnthehuman »

taurath wrote: post #65
peterpeppers wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting point. Martin Luther King Jr spoke quite a bit about addressing GUILT before he was killed. Unfortunately for all of us, he was incredibly unpopular before his death due to his position on the Vietnam War so his message on guilt is lost to transcripts. QUOTE: "The Negro needs the white man to save him from his fears, the white man needs the Negro to save him from his GUILT. We are tied together in so many…

And I must say, though this thought is controversial. If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Not personal guilt, as few even living today are directly responsible for the systems that came before. But guilt from being born into privilege in a society built entirely to benefit you, from the net worth of your parents, to the quiet mono-racial neighborhoo…

>If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel

I've never been a fan of the accusation that social justice uses "original sin" as an argumentative tactic, but here you are unambiguously using inherited sin.

Obviously people have a duty to live their lives honorably, but saddling someone with that kind of free floating guilt and anxiety seems like an attempt at setting them up for manipulation.

There's a theme in social justice where everything is systematic until it's people they don't like, then those people are personally morally culpable. It's like soc ail justice read a description of what it means for a social issue to be "systematic", without learning systems thinking. This lens on the issue is a way to gain insight for new systematic approaches to remedies, but instead it's been reduced to new "I'm right because I have bigger words than you" tech for pushing tired old tactics.

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