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Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#181

Post by jrochkind1 »

taurath wrote: post #65
peterpeppers wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting point. Martin Luther King Jr spoke quite a bit about addressing GUILT before he was killed. Unfortunately for all of us, he was incredibly unpopular before his death due to his position on the Vietnam War so his message on guilt is lost to transcripts. QUOTE: "The Negro needs the white man to save him from his fears, the white man needs the Negro to save him from his GUILT. We are tied together in so many…

And I must say, though this thought is controversial. If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Not personal guilt, as few even living today are directly responsible for the systems that came before. But guilt from being born into privilege in a society built entirely to benefit you, from the net worth of your parents, to the quiet mono-racial neighborhoo…

I disagree, and others would call me a "SJW", not coming at it from an anti-left point of view.

You might feel guilt, but will ultimately have to work through it to be a productive person fighting for a just society. If you are motivated mainly by guilt, you can easily end up prioritizing whatever makes you "feel better", instead of trying to figure out what is actually most effective to change society for justice.

Plus the things in the OP article, and others; guilt is simply not an effective motivation, and a movement of guilty people can't build the liberatory society we need.

You should be OPPOSED to all that, you should realize your comfort is not because you "deserve" it but just the luck of the draw, but guilt isn't actually helpful.

> What we as individuals, groups, and societies need is active opposition to racialized discrepancies, not idle, unproductive self-reproach. From awareness grows motivation to make a difference. White guilt tends to warp or subvert the very sympathies that spurred a yearning for change to begin with.

-- https://thehumanist.com/commentary/want-to-help-end-systemic...

> For we each of us deserve everything, every luxury that was ever piled in the tombs of the dead kings, and we each of us deserve nothing, not a mouthful of bread in hunger. Have we not eaten while another starved? Will you punish us for that? Will you reward us for the virtue of starving while others ate? No man earns punishment, no man earns reward. Free your mind of the idea of deserving, the idea of earning, and you will begin to be able to think.

From Ursula K LeGuin's _The Disposessed_

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#182

Post by dcolkitt »

Once again modern psychology confirms the intuitive wisdom of Dale Carnegie. The very first maxim in How to Win Friends and Influence People is "don't criticize, condemn of complain". And the reason for this:

"When dealing with people, remember you are not dealing with creatures of logic, but with creatures bristling with prejudice and motivated by pride and vanity..."

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#183

Post by throwaway616961 »

throwaway316943 wrote: post #131
pinopinopino wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Conservatives were the original environment protectors in the US. Probably politics that drove them away from it. In the current political climate dogmatism is spread pretty evenly. I like this observation. We should drive them back again though. I think they are not that hard to move if you bring the message in the correct way.

Conservatives are by nature conservative. They prefer gradual change to over night revolution. They want to see the proof that something will work. Instead of saying “we must eliminate the internal combustion engine” say “we must continue to improve the automobile” and instead of “we need a green economy” “we need an efficient and independent economy”. You do have to live up to your words though, conservatives are al…

> conservatives are also very detail oriented and will call you out if you don’t deliver.

Do you have any evidence that conservatives are more detailed oriented? Anecdotally conservative US presidents Regan (response to AIDS crisis), George W. Bush (War in Iraq), and Trump (COVID response) did not seem to care about policy details. Policies such as lowering tax rates to increase total tax revenue (Laffer Curve) does not seem detail oriented.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#184

Post by dvtrn »

FascistsAreLame wrote: post #177
cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

Guilt tripping people into not killing is evil? Your thesis doesn’t hold much water.

Neither does taking their statements to the most extreme and absurd.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#185

Post by [deleted] »

bartread wrote: post #153
cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

> Doing it is evil and makes you evil. Whoa: hold on just a second there. I don't necessarily disagree with your wider point but we need to step away from this inflammatory and accusatory language. You said that you used to guilt-trip people constantly when you were younger, and then you stopped when you realised how sick it was. Doing it didn't make you evil: it made you immature, and then you grew out of it. Except…

[deleted]

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#186

Post by adnzzzzZ »

bartread wrote: post #153
cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

> Doing it is evil and makes you evil. Whoa: hold on just a second there. I don't necessarily disagree with your wider point but we need to step away from this inflammatory and accusatory language. You said that you used to guilt-trip people constantly when you were younger, and then you stopped when you realised how sick it was. Doing it didn't make you evil: it made you immature, and then you grew out of it. Except…

Branding some behavior as evil isn't guilt tripping, it's just branding the behavior as evil. I agree with the person you replied to that guilt tripping is an evil behavior. People do all sorts of evil behaviors without realizing it, their lack of awareness doesn't make it any less evil.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#187

Post by quesera »

RandoHolmes wrote: post #163
aeturnum wrote: post #20

I agree that framing issues in a way that allows people to avoid feeling like they have done something wrong is more effective. I also think most activists are aware of this. I also think that crafting positive, uplifting messages requires a certain level of societal support. Hard to know what one could buy to stop police brutality right now, for instance. I suspect people will come up with things. When I see a prote…

> I see the Social Justice left as being in a phase like "young atheists"[2] or young gay people go through when they first embrace their identity: loud and proud and insistent that others recognize their validity. Back when I was in college (late 90's) I remember coming across a forum post where someone else was talking about this. The gist of it was that they knew a gay women who came out when she was in college, a…

I am unable to source the proper quote presently, but something along the lines of:

    Nature knows no greater zeal than that of the recently-converted.
The original context was religious, but I can document its applicability to sexual orientations, genres of music, operating systems, text editors, programming languages, and Ayn Rand.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#188

Post by ianai »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #132
depressedpanda wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Nonsense. You should feel thankful. Thankful that you had the luck being born in the most prosperous time in human history, where you have access to better healthcare, transportation, human rights and democratic privileges, to name just a few. Once you realize how good it is to live in this day and age and feel…

So feel guilty that you don't feel thankful, but only if you're white? You know that skin colour doesn't make you immune to poverty, or disease, or any adversity? Your comment comes across as supporting the parent comment; and as exceptionally racist. Almost certainly some kids living in USA didn't eat today. Your comment sounds like "well starving white kids can just eat their privilege". I don't understand why you'…

There are more emotions than guilt and thankfulness. They also aren’t even the apparent dipoles you appear to imply. Being thankful doesn’t mean you’re not guilty. I’m sure there are plenty of scenes of Lex Luther being thankful on YouTube of something he should feel guilt over-might even.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#189

Post by SuoDuanDao »

guerrilla wrote: post #97
rusk wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> white people holding on to their money and power That there is a racist statement. Yes maybe intergenerational wealth causes some issues but to cast it as a purely white issue is just stupid. Avarice is a feature common to all of humanity.

> That there is a racist statement. Hardly. It has nothing to do with who or what they are but rather is literally a description of what they are doing. > white issue It is a white issue that white people oppress others and are the only ones with the power to stop that short of violent overthrow.

If white people are a monolithic entity, what possible incentive would we have to give our rivals more room to manouvre?

I see two options - either race doesn't matter to anyone worth listening to, or white people aren't being aggressive enough in securing our own interests. Or can you articulate a third position?

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#190

Post by ianai »

dcolkitt wrote: post #182

Once again modern psychology confirms the intuitive wisdom of Dale Carnegie. The very first maxim in How to Win Friends and Influence People is "don't criticize, condemn of complain". And the reason for this: " When dealing with people, remember you are not dealing with creatures of logic, but with creatures bristling with prejudice and motivated by pride and vanity... "

Not totally comfortable discussing that book in this context. It seems that book is very much about manipulation though I admittedly haven’t read it completely. But yes if even it points out that guilt should be used sparingly and only for very good reasons that reinforces the concept.
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