How to Write in Plain English • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#231

Post by kube-system » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:26 PM UTC

grugagag wrote: post #217

kwoff wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a small number of "slots" of short term memory. I wonder how smart we'd be if we had twice as many slots.

I don’t think we’d see the difference if everybody had roughly the same number. Ive seen people who have a few more slots than average and it appears quite inpressive, they keep on stacking up when I already overflow. It’s probably got to do with how they chunk their information though.. But a piece of paper and a pencil can do wonders

Paper and pencil is like writing to swap.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#232

Post by stared » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:29 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #38

gorgoiler wrote: post #2

Writing clearly is like playing Tetris. Sentences should be presented with clauses that drop down and slot together efficiently. At the earliest available opportunity you drop in a block that completes the line and points are won/made. This can also make for rather dull writing and I appreciate the irony in this paragraph: > However, at first you may still find yourself writing the odd long sentence, especially when…

Don't make your readers hold parts of the sentence in their head. Reorder or split sentences until it can be avoided. In other words, use a really small buffer. "You must fill form 331 unless you are over 60 years old, in which case you must fill form 445." "You must fill form 331. If you are over 60 years old, you must fill 445 instead." "If you are over 60 years old, you must fill form 445. Otherwise, you must fill…

I think you gave a good reason why passive voice is preferred in some situations.

To me (I am not a native speaker), the default emphasis is on the first words:

The police stopped the riot. -> emphasis on the police

The riot was stopped by the police. -> emphasis on the riot

It coincides with the examples in which passive voice is recommended.

> To make something less hostile - 'this bill has not been paid' (passive) is softer than 'you have not paid this bill' (active).

> To avoid taking the blame - 'a mistake was made' (passive) rather than 'we made a mistake' (active).

...

Yes, I agree that we often overuse passive voice, and active voice is a good default. However, I think that the rule of thumb should be "write in the natural order", rather than "don't use passive voice unless strictly necessary".

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#233

Post by noisy_boy » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:36 PM UTC

aclimatt wrote: post #214

nicbou wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a place and a time for culture. Your electric bill is not one of them. I disagree with your last paragraph. Speaking clearly and decisively is a good thing, and people will usually appreciate it. People become famous for speaking clearly. I remember some general made the rounds for his plain, no-nonsense COVID-19 address. I wish I could find it again. I can only think of this scene right now. https://youtu.b…

I'd say that actually is my point though. If you're a high-ranking official giving a speech, speaking the same language as the general population will make you well-received and well-understood by using the language of your constituents. Speaking a language people understand is decisively a good thing, and what people understand varies dramatically by situation. "Plain English" isn't always the answer. (Also hierarch…

Your last line beautifully captures your point. Very well made.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#234

Post by radiowave » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:37 PM UTC

strogonoff wrote: post #167

BurningFrog wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A useful FAQ list must consist of questions that are actually often asked. They represent discovered problems in the text the author didn't foresee.

> They represent discovered problems in the text the author didn't foresee. Indeed. If certain questions are asked frequently, likely the information is not presented with audience’s actual needs in mind. Content should be updated, possibly rewritten. Putting up a FAQ shows content editor washing their hands of that responsibility. I also find it a little rude, like “Welcome to the group of people who, despite our be…

Of course, FAQs originated in places like mailing lists and usenet groups, where it's arguably a good fit, precisely because there is no real standing body of text. The trouble is that it then got shoe-horned into being used on websites.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#235

Post by rbonvall » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:41 PM UTC

aazaa wrote: post #148

The article doesn't mention the way that word placement changes the meaning of sentences. From a video I recently saw but can't recall, consider these sentences: - Although John is a nice guy, he beats his dog. - Although John beats his dog, he's a nice guy. - John is a nice guy, but he beats his dog. - John beats his dog, but he's a nice guy. These are all plain English sentences, but will be interpreted quite diffe…

This is probably the video you saw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLPCdDp_LE0 (Judy Swan, Scientific Writing: Beyond Tips and Tricks)

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#236

Post by jariel » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:45 PM UTC

quietbritishjim wrote: post #186

jariel wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ping comes from submarine sonar - not the networking world. Everyone of a certain age will have seen a half dozen submarine WW2 or Cold War films so regular people do have context. And there's nothing wrong with it. 'Learnings' is an odd word but it actually makes sense because there are no perfect substitutes. 'Insights' isn't quite it.

A possible alternative to "learning" is "lesson". The problem with "lesson" is that it can have two meanings: (a) a formal lecture given by a qualified person to a class; (b) a fact that you learned from any person or even just a situation you were in. "Lesson" in the sense (b) is a direct substitute for "a learning", but I have to admit a few people might sometimes interpret it as (a) and be confused. But it depends…

Yeah - 'lessons learned' is idiomatically more tantamount to something 'learned after having made an error'.

I'll bet there are words in other languages that more perfectly capture the meaning of 'learnings' - and admittedly it's a really ugly colloquialism ... but I would accept it out of a resigned pragmatism.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#237

Post by iou » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:48 PM UTC

This looks to be a bit of a distillation of "revising prose" book https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1552699.Revising_Prose

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#238

Post by dctoedt » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #85

nicbou wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't make your readers hold parts of the sentence in their head. Reorder or split sentences until it can be avoided. In other words, use a really small buffer. "You must fill form 331 unless you are over 60 years old, in which case you must fill form 445." "You must fill form 331. If you are over 60 years old, you must fill 445 instead." "If you are over 60 years old, you must fill form 445. Otherwise, you must fill…

> Don't make your readers hold parts of the sentence in their head. Funny to read this as I'm learning German! In German the main verb of a sentence has to be at the end depending on the context (e.g: if it is a question, or following some prepositions such as "dass"). Let's say we want to build a question, it will be constructed this way: 1. question marker (such as "Was", "Wo", "Warum", etc) 2. subject 3. other det…

I'm not a German speaker, but verb-at-the-end sounds like reverse Polish notation (of happy memory, learned for my brand-new 1972 HP-35 calculator).

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#239

Post by jwuphysics » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

rbonvall wrote: post #235

aazaa wrote: post #148

The article doesn't mention the way that word placement changes the meaning of sentences. From a video I recently saw but can't recall, consider these sentences: - Although John is a nice guy, he beats his dog. - Although John beats his dog, he's a nice guy. - John is a nice guy, but he beats his dog. - John beats his dog, but he's a nice guy. These are all plain English sentences, but will be interpreted quite diffe…

This is probably the video you saw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLPCdDp_LE0 (Judy Swan, Scientific Writing: Beyond Tips and Tricks)

Wow, is that the auditorium in the CMU Gates building? I remember pulling all-nighter "homework parties" in there!

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#240

Post by nicky0 » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:02 PM UTC

Joker_vD wrote: post #182

ThePadawan wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a Brazilian roommate who could second this. He (jokingly) complained this was the absolute worst when dealing with split-proposition-verbs: E. g. "aufgeben" translated part-by-part is "upgive", so "to surrender" or "to give up" in English. However, in sth. like 3rd position singular, the form would be "er gibt auf" ("he gives up"). But in German, the object goes between "gives" and "up". Thus, my roommate menti…

Well, English too has some interesting ideas where to put prepositions in the sentence, that is, turn them basically into postpositions. For example, "Which basket did you put that exquisite marble figurine in?" The "in" is logically related to "which basket", so one would expect that the question would actually be *"In which basket...", but nope, that's rustic and colloquial at best. I suspect it's because of the wo…

"In which basket did you put that exquisite marble figurine?" is perfectly good English. It sounds better to me that the "which ... in" version. (British English speaker.)