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Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

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Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#121
post #19

Epic is just the new gang in town establishing themselves while trying to get some shops under their control, by playing being against the long time block owners.

yes but you can't pre-bust monopolies. apple's market position is causing higher prices for consumers. therefore it should be busted. we just need to keep the same standard (or better: make it more strict; apple has been abusive for a long time) for when epic becomes the monopoly.

Apple market size is only relevant in North America and a couple of tier 1 western countries, hardly a monopoly.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#122
post #19

Epic is just the new gang in town establishing themselves while trying to get some shops under their control, by playing being against the long time block owners.

They're trying to establish a precedent that would limit all monopolistic behaviour, including theirs. Obviously their motivations are to make it easier for them to compete, but it won't make it easier for them to become a monopoly.

20% global market share isn't a monopoly.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#123
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You understand why others find it strange you don't and why they do though, right?

I think it’s strange that others (a small subset of people) want to take something great and ruin it. I understand that someone wants to tinker with their phone, but in that case that’s just not what an iPhone is for. It never has been.

You think that allowing another app store will ruin your iPhone?

That's incorrect. Just don't use it.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#124
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just Epic. Apple do. If you think Epic Games and Epic International are wholly separate then telling Epic Games "Engineering efforts to improve hardware and software performance of Unreal Engine on Mac and iOS hardware;" would make no sense. It's very clear that Apple are threatening to do things that impact all of Epic in that letter. What's less clear is whether or not Apple would have actually revoked Epic Int…

Common sense ties them together. While the Fortnite app was in violation of terms, it wasn’t the app itself which violated the terms—it was the corporation.

> While the Fortnite app was in violation of terms, it wasn’t the app itself which violated the terms—it was the corporation.

Definitely not. If you have multiple apps in the App Store, and one is removed for violating the terms, the rest should not be removed, since the others didn’t violate those terms.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#125
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows, Apple and Chromebooks are all proprietary platforms. With PC you also have the choice to install Linux, which is the categorical difference. With smartphones there's not really an open choice available.

I specifically didn't mention Linux because Linux isn't a realistic choice for the average consumer, though. Realistic choices come commonly pre-installed and works with a range of things without much work for the end consumer. Most folks don't have the choice to install it due to lack of technical competence anyway. Even folks with the technical know-how often enough don't due to, well, ease of use issues. (Yes, I k…

Linux is pretty user friendly these days though, Ubuntu and Mint are perfectly usable even if you're not a poweruser.

Maybe that's just the developer in me falsely believing people are more competent than they actually are, though.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#126
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of realistic choice. If you are the average consumer looking to buy a smartphone, you have the choice of either Android or Apple. You get more choice with a PC, to an extent - the average consumer is going to get to choose between Microsoft, something like a chromebook, or apple. (Most folks buy mainstream, widely available products that work out of the box). I'm not sure the market for non-standard products is…

Windows, Apple and Chromebooks are all proprietary platforms. With PC you also have the choice to install Linux, which is the categorical difference. With smartphones there's not really an open choice available.

Even though that's kinda sad, I don't expect to see any (relevant, mass-market, used by the general public) truly open alternative in the foreseeable future. The market just doesn't seem to be there for it.

On PCs, already pretty much no one uses Linux outside of tech bubbles (and even there, seems like it's behind both Windows and macOS [0]), apparently somewhere around 1-2% [1] among the general population; in practice, it feels like it should be even less, at least based on what mainstream websites I'm familiar with see. And this is for general-purpose computers, where an open OS might have tangible benefits for the general, non-developer/ops public (not sure which, but I guess such a case could be made) – but phones don't seem to be general-purpose computers for most; it seems they're used for media consumption, taking photos, communication, maybe some light gaming, and not much else – all thinks where the existing walled gardens offer a very compelling experience with assurances for security and quality that open platforms might have a hard time delivering.

A truly open smartphone platform would probably face an even harder uphill battle than desktop Linux, and that's already failed to gain traction time and again. You'd need compatible apps for it to gain traction, but who's going to make those? It'd have to offer a really polished UX, I don't see many people picking a clunky, ugly, bug-ridden phone based on GPL vs. proprietary – lots of people (including me) buy iPhones in part because they enjoy their design and UX. How do you make sure apps aren't scattered across lots of malware-infested app stores? How do you make sure people don't inadvertently shoot themselves in the foot all the time if you don't wall them off from choices that might lead to that? But how do you wall off people on a platform that is truly open? And so on, and so on. Unless some tech giant decides their interests align very much with a truly open and relevant mobile OS, I have a hard time seeing it happen – and even then.

The current tech world is much different from when the major desktop environments solidified; this time around, the vast, overwhelming, huge majority of computer users are not enthusiasts or IT professionals anymore like in the 90s, but completely uninterested and uninvested in the tech apart from having it work for them to do relatively simple tasks, similar to what most people outside of the relevant enthusiast bubbles feel towards cars or stoves. I don't want to run Emacs on my stove and maybe blow myself up in the process, I want it to work reliably and safely and just heat my food. I'd actully like no one to be able to tinker at will with safety-critical software in their cars, because their segfaulting Formula 1 brake patch they got from some Facebook page might mean they plow into me and I die.

[0] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-de... [1] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#127
post #32

Could someone explain what was Apple trying to do? I really don't get their position in this story. It seemed obvious that trying to completely block Epic's Unreal Engine would be causing more legal issues. What is their strategy here? It feels that they actually wanted things to escalate, though I cannot see why they would do this.

As far as I understand, Apple has blocked Epic's developer account which prevents them from developing for iOS. They haven't directly blocked Unreal engine

That's only half of the story. Apple threatened Epic to block the Unreal Engine completely, that's what the article discussed here is about.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#128
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say Epic get what they want, that would open iOS to competing app stores and/or would make rules more flexible regarding available payment systems and/or would allow applications to be side loaded. That's more dynamism, market forces can then play their role. I understand that you may want an even more open market, but that's a quite different topic. > Having two competing kings fighting over the throne isn't "…

I was hinting at the possibility of having a platform where there is no central app store to even allow such "dynamics" to unfold. > I'm not sure what you want to say here That the Apple platform with the store model has significant disadvantages.

Ok, but do we agree that Epic getting what they want would result in a more open platform than what we currently have? Because the alternative to what Epic want (so the current situation) isn't a completely open platform but one where Apple is the only boss and can do almost whatever they want. Having more bosses in competition for parts of the market is an improvement toward a more open system.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I understand, Apple has blocked Epic's developer account which prevents them from developing for iOS. They haven't directly blocked Unreal engine

That's only half of the story. Apple threatened Epic to block the Unreal Engine completely, that's what the article discussed here is about.

I don't think that's correct. They were threatening to block Epic's developer account, which would make future engine releases difficult.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I specifically didn't mention Linux because Linux isn't a realistic choice for the average consumer, though. Realistic choices come commonly pre-installed and works with a range of things without much work for the end consumer. Most folks don't have the choice to install it due to lack of technical competence anyway. Even folks with the technical know-how often enough don't due to, well, ease of use issues. (Yes, I k…

Linux is pretty user friendly these days though, Ubuntu and Mint are perfectly usable even if you're not a poweruser. Maybe that's just the developer in me falsely believing people are more competent than they actually are, though.

The issue isn't using it, it's getting it set up, working with all hardware, getting everything that's needed installed across different repositories, configuring everything the way it's needed, then keeping it running, survive updates, and fixing it when it breaks, which desktop Linux is still very prone to (apt dependency conflicts have wrecked beyond repair many Linux installs I've run).

At some point, you have to have a pretty deep understanding of how Linux and computers work to Google the right things, and then understand and apply a fix – or worse, you may have to work out one on your own, which may entail things like reading source code and patching stuff; I'd say I'm somewhat competent as far as running Linux goes, and I've had numerous issues over the years that I was unable to fix, mundane but non-negotiable things like "getting sound to work". Best case, that'll just require more or less heavy command line usage, which only a tiny minority of people have ever used before and which is highly non-intuitive at first.

That amounts to building a very comprehensive set of skills that is completely worthless to most people otherwise, and that you don't need for Windows or macOS, let alone Android/iOS.

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