Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny • Hacker News Board

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#161

Post by vmception » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

guscost wrote: post #155

vmception wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In China there are “execution vans” with no other purpose even suggested: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van From your article > Liu was convicted > a reprieve after appealing > given a retrial Your entire article describes convicted death row prisoners, whether we agree with or respect China's due process at all. Why did you think it bolstered your argument to talk about Chinese due process in an articl…

You think all the other non-“notable” people executed in one of those things got the appropriate legal protections too? Anyway I’m just trying to say that if you want to apply the most unfriendly interpretation to some happening in America, in order to compare it to “non-American Marxist regimes”, at least be consistent.

> “execution vans” with no other purpose even suggested

> article shows purpose suggested with convicted prisoners

You presented them as if they just scoop people up off the street and execute them on the spot.

No, that's just America.

I'm asking you to compare the same things and all you did was present a different thing, masqueraded it as a worse thing, failed to find any comparison. If you want to elevate Chinese processes as a charade, thats pretty much what I would expect you to do, but people get railroaded in the US all the time too. So let's just talk about the things completely devoid of due process, or instead of deflecting we can just talk about how the US does not have a better process at all and we should put it under so much more scrutiny.

"We can talk about it" and thats how we got to this outcome, because everyone talked about giving the government all the power, stripping their need for due process, and siding with them by default way too often.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#162

Post by Yc4win » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

Cops are some of the stupidest, most violent people in our society. In many jurisdictions you can be disqualified from law enforcement if you are too intelligent, because they just need their thugs to follow orders and not to ever think. Cops have absolutely no business ordering a paramedic to do anything.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#163

Post by NotSammyHagar » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 2:30 PM UTC

caskethopper wrote: post #125

anon9001 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that all restraint methods are upsetting, but "inject with dissociative drugs" should really be a lot further down the list than "hit with stick". Personally, I favor hitting people with billy clubs, because it leaves evidence of what happened and it requires the police to actually take physical action against another human. Giving cops needles full of magic compliance juice seems less responsible to me. The…

From the article, it sounds like it is on a completely different list altogether. "Most states and agencies say ketamine may be administered when someone exhibits “excited delirium” or agitation, which is typically associated with chronic drug abuse, mental illness or both." In that scenario, the police would be beating the culprit into compliance and we would all be looking at videos on youtube shaking our heads. I'…

This is yet another scenario where the US can't seem to avoid violent actions when arresting people and other countries don't seem to have this problem. So what's going on here? I can only see it as another case where violent actions are significantly increased by police behavior.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#164

Post by dragonwriter » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 2:32 PM UTC

Yc4win wrote: post #162

Cops are some of the stupidest, most violent people in our society. In many jurisdictions you can be disqualified from law enforcement if you are too intelligent, because they just need their thugs to follow orders and not to ever think. Cops have absolutely no business ordering a paramedic to do anything .

> In many jurisdictions you can be disqualified from law enforcement if you are too intelligent

There's obviously at least one department that did this at one point in time because of the notable lawsuit allowing it, but what is the source for it being a practice in “many jurisdictions”?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#165

Post by tmp538394722 » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 2:32 PM UTC

mortehu wrote: post #103

axaxs wrote: post #3

Why are we injecting people during arrests, which by definition are not yet guilty people? Even if nobody had died, this is absurd.

If you are resisting arrest, you may still be presumed innocent of the original crime. However you're almost certainly guilty of resisting lawful arrest, which is usually a misdemeanor. There's no exemption that allows innocent people to resist lawful arrest. This is not to say that injection sounds like a great solution for everyday arrests.

Elijah McClain did not resist arrest.

> I can’t breathe. I have my ID right here. My name is Elijah McClain. That’s my house. I was just going home. I’m an introvert. I’m just different. That’s all. I’m so sorry. I have no gun. I don’t do that stuff. I don’t do any fighting. Why are you attacking me? I don’t even kill flies! I don’t eat meat! But I don’t judge people, I don’t judge people who do eat meat. Forgive me. All I was trying to do was become better. I will do it. I will do anything. Sacrifice my identity, I’ll do it. You all are phenomenal. You are beautiful and I love you. Try to forgive me. I’m a mood Gemini. I’m sorry. I’m so sorry. Ow, that really hurt. You are all very strong. Teamwork makes the dream work. Oh, I’m sorry I wasn’t trying to do that. I just can’t breathe correctly.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/elijah-mcclains-last-words...

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#166

Post by hutzlibu » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 2:33 PM UTC

i_am_proteus wrote: post #67

ak39 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but drugs should only be administered by suitably trained and educated professionals such as EMT and health care professionals. Not police!

Many (not all) police departments cross-train police officers as EMTs. The two are not mutually exclusive and, in many ways, complement each other.

I am very much against the idea of police using ketamine, but I believe all street officers should be fully trained EMT's as well.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#167

Post by JohnBooty » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 2:34 PM UTC

musha68k wrote: post #81

burfog wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to propose a method, and we'll all object to that. Stopping an uncooperative person is guaranteed to be upsetting to somebody. That is fundamental to the problem. Every method tried so far has been objected to by squeamish people who refuse to understand. If we let criminals run amok, then we get a failed state, and then armed gangs form to impose their own idea of a justice system. I assure you, those arme…

De-escalation skills can be learned. First class psychological training and counselling could be the norm. One gains a lot of respect by showing wisdom and courage. Most scenarios are essentially communication problems to be solved. Not defaulting to the most violent means of "cooperation" is and should be an option for any police force in a 21st century democracy. Look to the best in the past and in other countries.…

What's really sobering is that, in my personal experiences as a middle-class American white man in his 40s, police have always been really good at de-escalating things.

I haven't always agreed with them, but they have always cooled things down nicely without resorting to violence or even arrests.

Training varies widely by locale, but I believe de-escalation is indeed a nearly universal part of their training. It must also be noted that de-escalation certainly is much easier for the police officers themselves: less hassle, less danger, less paperwork, less repercussions. These people generally just want to get through their shift and get home.

They are certainly capable of de-escalation and, in most instances, are trained and motivated to de-escalate.

So, it's very telling when (nearly always white) officers leap to unnecessarily violent tactics on (nearly always Black) victims.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#168

Post by microcolonel » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 2:37 PM UTC

Yc4win wrote: post #151

To use a powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" is about the most abhorrent, sickly thing I have heard in years. I don't want to read any more of this. To think of all the complications in a person's body from experiencing a drug that puts your conscience in a literally black hole (K-hole) is just sick. It's wrong.

The fact that ketamine is also used by veterinarians is unremarkable. Almost every common human antibiotic is also used for fish; are broad-spectrum antibiotics “fish drugs”?

Ketamine is routinely used by paramedics, I think more routinely in Western Europe than in North America.

The real question is whether it is appropriate for police to request the use of sedatives while effecting an arrest; and you could argue in some cases that it is entirely appropriate even if your only priority is the wellbeing of the arrestee.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#169

Post by hajwh » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 2:37 PM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #85

dcolkitt wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess the problem is those already intoxicated on opiates, or even alcohol, as many arrestees are. Adding a bento, like valium, to that mix is extremely dangerous because of the synergistic effect on respiratory depression.

If you're intoxicated on opioids, you are not going to be violently resisting arrest in the first place.

George Floyd was intoxicated on opioids and violently resisting arrest.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#170

Post by fortran77 » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

dirtnugget wrote: post #71

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #62

> He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. 315 milligrams is still.. a lot. Especially injected into the bloodstream (I presume?) all at one time. Enough to really wrangle your marbles even if you're used to that kind of stuff. edit: To expand, that's about the dosage most people would get delusions of some sort, but not be 1…

I was wondering how one could be so bad at estimating weight. But yes, it’s a lot.

Police in the U.S. are usually extremely overweight. They might not know that a healthy 5'10 adult should weigh 150 pounds.