Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

theverge.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 387 posts

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#271

Post by Slartie »

mortenjorck wrote: post #73
makecheck wrote: post #55

What ultimately made me pull out of the Mac App Store was the fact that publishing with Apple meant “app with customizations to accommodate stupid rules”, and $EVERYWHERE_ELSE meant “upload and be done with it”. If you haven’t checked lately, the Mac App Store is a pathetic ghost town for the most part. On iOS I guarantee that if the App Store had even one alternative, many apps would do the same and bail on Apple, a…

I have an allergy to tech analogies in general, but Apple's brick-and-mortar retail analogy is one of the worst. In any locality other than rural towns served by a single Dollar General, consumers have a choice between multiple retail outlets. If they don't like the choices at one store, they're free to shop at another. "But Android!" one might say, and once again, the analogy falls completely flat. The switching cos…

> "But Android!" one might say, and once again, the analogy falls completely flat. The switching costs of going between iOS and Android are obviously not remotely comparable from the switching costs of going between Walmart and Target. When you move into iOS town, the only store within a thousand miles is the App Store.

The analogy actually works quite nice, and you already hinted at how: the Android alternative is akin to permanently moving from one place to another because that one place you were in did only have one store with very restrictive rules and opening others is forbidden. Accepting such a monopoly and arguing that "people are free to sell their houses, leave their friends and family behind and move elsewhere if they don't like it" doesn't really make it a monopoly is ridiculous.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#272

Post by mijoharas »

scarface74 wrote: post #227
Marsymars wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Apple Maps, Photos, Siri, and Messages. (I'd be willing to pay a subscription fee to have them on Android. As is, I just do without, and deal with ridiculous workarounds like having my Android phone save my photos to OneDrive and them manually copying them over to Photos on my Mac.)

Really? I’m an iPhone user and even I admit that Google Maps, Google Photos and whatever Google is calling their voice assistant today are better. If I were serious about photos I would use Lightroom.

I agree with you on every point except the last. Now might be a bad time to recommend Lightroom given their last update permanently wiped people's photos[0].

Having agreed with you, there is a non-insignificant switching cost (in time) for photos, especially if something is your primary photo store.

[0] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.zdnet.com/google-amp/articl...

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#273

Post by shi314 »

bekman wrote: post #217
cameldrv wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably Apple should have nothing to do with this. Someone buys a phone from Apple, and now owns that phone. He wants to use his property to run some software. What should Apple have to do with this decision any more than Chevy should tell me what neighborhoods I should drive my car into?

Not a fair comparison, this’s between developers and Apple, Apple doesn’t change you anything after you buy their phone.

It's like saying VAT and GST aren't charged on customers but on businesses.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#274

Post by vidarh »

mijoharas wrote: post #265
scarface74 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The studio/movie regulation was overturned....

What was this regulation? I'm unaware of it

Primarily the Paramount case[1] and agreements entered into by the studios as a consequence.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Paramount_Pic....

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#275

Post by nodamage »

commoner wrote: post #192
nodamage wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Market power is the ability to coerce people into paying more for something via a mechanism other than actually offering a better product or service. How exactly does Apple "coerce people into paying more for their phones via a mechanism other than actually offering a better product or service", and what is that mechanism? > But if a firm is able to drive up prices with impunity for any reason, it's likely they pos…

The matter under contention is the pricing of in-app purchases, not the pricing of phones. By disallowing app stores other than Apple's App Store, Apple is coercing users to pay an inflated price for in-app purchases, since it takes a 42.8% price hike to negate Apple's 30% fee.

Both are relevant, because in order to successfully win an antitrust tying claim under US law you need to prove the seller had sufficient market power in a tying product in order to coerce buyers into buying the tied product.

In this case, once you buy an iPhone, you're forced to use Apple's system to make in-app purchases. The tying product is the phone, and the tied product is the in-app purchase.

So you need to show that Apple has sufficient market power in the smartphone market, and that is where the question of the ability to control prices of phones comes in.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#276

Post by ponker »

rubber_duck wrote: post #5

Really at this point Apple control over app store is anti-competitive (and Google over play store), having to rely on community outrage to get stuff like this turned is ridiculous. They should create legislation to control access to all app stores to prevent this rent seeking - force app stores to treat all apps equally according to store defined guidelines (including store owners apps) - any submissions have to be r…

If "No outside payment inside of apps" is illegal is it legal for Apple to heavily promote those apps that do pay in-app?

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#277

Post by ponker »

bloblaw wrote: post #81
rubber_duck wrote: post #5

Really at this point Apple control over app store is anti-competitive (and Google over play store), having to rely on community outrage to get stuff like this turned is ridiculous. They should create legislation to control access to all app stores to prevent this rent seeking - force app stores to treat all apps equally according to store defined guidelines (including store owners apps) - any submissions have to be r…

> They should create legislation to control access to all app stores to prevent this rent seeking You have a lot of faith in 60+ year old (mostly tech-illiterate men) to fix technology they don't understand. Government isn't the solution to this problem. Developers leaving the app store is probably only what will get Apple to change.

Compared to the entire set of countries, the US government is extraordinarily high-functioning, and this was all created by mostly 60+ tech-illiterate men.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#278

Post by cynix »

hackingthenews wrote: post #189
parasubvert wrote: post #153

I find the group think here to be incredible, and you all will likely be very disappointed when the legal system winds up supporting Apple. Regulating retailers because you don’t like their cut is price controls, which is completely contrary to a free market, and ultimately undermines the end user experience of having a trusted, secure store. Perhaps Google or Apple’s power is so strong as to warrant regulation - but…

What Apple and Google is doing is in many ways effectively price control and inhibits free market dynamics. For example Apple demand that app developers price their apps in the app store similar to the same service in other stores (website, Google play store, etc), even though they are taking a huge 30% cut. So Spotify can't price their product 30% more expensive in the app store, which makes the app store appear com…

> For example Apple demand that app developers price their apps in the app store similar to the same service in other stores (website, Google play store, etc), even though they are taking a huge 30% cut. So Spotify can't price their product 30% more expensive in the app store

False. You can price your app/IAP higher, you just can't tell the user it's cheaper elsewhere.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#279

Post by shi314 »

krrrh wrote: post #212
parasubvert wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft’s case was about parlaying their monopoly in Windows to the browser space by making Internet Explorer an intrinsic part of Windows. This is completely different from the #1 and #2 smart phone marketshare players charging a 30% cut as the exclusive software reseller to their own platform. The original At&T was allowed to be a monopoly for 80+ years because it was in the public interest. The 1982 breakup was…

There is so much misremembering of the Microsoft antitrust case, especially by people who didn’t follow it closely at the time, and you’re very right to remind everyone that the core issue was asking the government to intervene to maintain the viability of $40 closed source browser licenses. MSFT “lost” the case but the remedies amounted to a slap on the wrist. Meanwhile the market in its broadest sense innovated in…

What would have happened if Microsoft only allowed Apps to be installed through a store instead of side loading. I don't think you could have gotten open source browsers and open standards especially if it had terms like that of Apple. Microsoft could have made arguments like security risk or against their policy to shut down community projects in early stage.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#280

Post by RonanTheGrey »

dylan604 wrote: post #83
dlubarov wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in the brick & mortar scenario, the negotiation happens on more of a level playing field. Both parties have a reasonable alternative if an agreement isn't reached -- the manufacturer can find another retailer, and the retailer can find another supplier. In this case there's no such competitive market. Granted, 30% would be low for retail, but surely digital marketplaces would charge less if competition was allowe…

Ever tried to negotiate to get your product sold on a shelf? It is very much not a level playing field. WalMart is infamous for beating sellers down to such a low per unit price with the promise of making it up on quantity. Target, BestBuy, and any other big box retailer only follow WalMart's lead. Then there's the fact that if your product doesn't sell well according to their metrics, you are forced to buy it back f…

There's a saying in economics that "in a perfectly competitive market, nobody is making a profit - because if they are, someone is losing customers". In a perfectly competitive market, everyone lowers prices to the point they can't lower them anymore, and that tends to be the same price for all competitors.

In a market where someone is making billions in profit, it's almost de-facto evidence of a lack of competition. Not a priori, obviously, but it gives you a basis for measurement that where you're looking is somewhere on that spectrum.

For big box stores, that razor thin margin is exactly what you would expect from a very competitive market and so it's fair to say that it is one.

Who else can charge 30% on every sale just because?

Post reply on HN