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Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

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Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#261

Post by roblabla »

dwaite wrote: post #258
rubber_duck wrote: post #5

Really at this point Apple control over app store is anti-competitive (and Google over play store), having to rely on community outrage to get stuff like this turned is ridiculous. They should create legislation to control access to all app stores to prevent this rent seeking - force app stores to treat all apps equally according to store defined guidelines (including store owners apps) - any submissions have to be r…

> They should create legislation to control access to all app stores to prevent this rent seeking I assume by "they" you mean "each of the 175+ countries that the app stores operate in, most with slightly different rules that a software developer would need to understand?"

A software dev won't need to understand it. Apple's and Google's legal team would. Your average software dev doesn't run an app store

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#262

Post by em-bee »

luckylion wrote: post #249
em-bee wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so in fact what we have here is a vertical lock-in. lock-in is just as bad as a monopoly, as it removes the ability to choose competitors. i believe the EU has a law for interoperability, it only applies to API's as far as i know, but one could see the phone as a device with an API that allows apps to run on it. it could therefore be considered that now allowing any app to run on the phone is a violation of that law.

That's an interesting point. They forced the end of every manufacturer using unique charging cabled for their phones, forcing a universal app API would be a great step. The phone would literally just become a platform and you could have a healthy competition about who builds the best platform.

the API would not have to be universal, because that would mean android support on IOS. the API would just have to be open, in that neither apple nor google can act as gatekeepers for who gets to use it.

this also includes that apple can not disallow duplication of existing features.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#263

Post by nodamage »

zerocrates wrote: post #246
scarface74 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company that was subject to antitrust because it colluded with other companies in the market has nothing to do with what’s going on in the app market. Collusion is always illegal -except for the sports leagues. Yes and consoles makers have control of their consoles, Roku has control of their platform, as does LG with their WebOS based TVs. Yet and still when you were challenged to come up with an analogous example,…

I can't speak for what other people have posted, but there's, to my mind, a quite analogous case for this situation: Kodak v. Image Technical Services. The case involved Kodak refusing to sell parts for its copiers to outside repair shops, and they were sued by the shops who claimed this was anticompetitive behavior. Kodak made a claim that since there was robust competition in the market for copiers, they couldn't h…

The key point in the Kodak case was that Kodak changed their policy on selling repair parts after people bought the original product, and the change in policy is what led the Supreme Court to decide that the market for repair parts was a separate and relevant aftermarket, because the people that bought Kodak copiers lacked information at the time of purchase about Kodak's repair policy and therefore were locked-in to buying repair services from Kodak after the fact.

Subsequent cases since Kodak have continually narrowed the scope in which Kodak is applied, and it likely would not apply here because people who buy iPhones have known since the App Store launched in 2008 that the App Store is the only place they'll be able to install apps from.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#264

Post by rvense »

cvs268 wrote: post #232
donmcronald wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any submissions have to be reviewed in a reasonable amount of time and if declined must receive specific violations of the guidelines on which the denial is based Competing app stores solves this 100% because there would definitely be a market for a developer friendly app store.

Competing app stores would raise another problem though. One that occurred with certifying agencies in the financial crisis of 2008. In a world with competing app-stores, if a store does its scrutiny properly, and is seen as too strict, then the apps will flock to get listed in other less-strict app-stores. Thus all stores are incentivised to relax the scrutiny to retain apps for their own survival. Sometimes to the…

> Thus the end-users lose the benefits of proper curation.

But Apple are obviously not doing proper curation. They might be good at keeping viruses out, but what they have done to Wordpress and HEY was not proper in the least.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#265

Post by mijoharas »

scarface74 wrote: post #99
travisjungroth wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im not really into congress defining how apps get reviewed. I’d rather see it just get broken up in some way. Either you can’t have a phone and an app store (like the studio/movie model) or they at least have to support other app stores. Side note: my iPhone autocorrected app store to App Store, which I think is another example of overreach.

The studio/movie regulation was overturned....

What was this regulation? I'm unaware of it

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#266

Post by simonh »

jayd16 wrote: post #256
g_p wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the biggest issues with Google play store review is they won't actually tell developers which rule they're breaking, as you point out. This is so incredibly developer-hostile that the fact developers keep using the play store pretty much helps make the case they're acting in an anticompetitive manner. It certainly is interesting to note Google removed the title "Non-competition" from clause 4.5 of their develo…

Its crappy but I don't see how a crappy review process is anti-competitive or how improving this aspect would make the situation less monopolistic.

The argument is that the review process gets away with being crappy due to the monopoly position, not that it is leading to the monopoly. It’s a symptom, not a cause.

Also it’s possible that specific clauses in the guidelines are anti-competitive. Fir example a guideline that simply disallows any app that competes with one of Google’s Apps might be seen this way.

So those are coherent arguments I think, I just don’t agree with them. The Play Store is a google product, with features developed and maintained by a Google. Other stores exist that compete with it, with features developed by other companies. The reason customers went with Google Play is simply because it had momentum and scale, and customers don’t want multiple stores. They want one store with one set of rules where all the Apps are, that will be on their next phone. Customers benefit from a one stop shop.

If someone wanted to develop a better store, with libraries better than ‘play services’, what stops them? If you want to inter operate with and use the services of the Play Store, you need to make a deal with a google, and the terms of that deal are standardised by Google. There’s nothing obviously illegal or a abusive about any of that, as long as the contractual relationships are fairly administered under the law.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#267

Post by Slartie »

parasubvert wrote: post #153

I find the group think here to be incredible, and you all will likely be very disappointed when the legal system winds up supporting Apple. Regulating retailers because you don’t like their cut is price controls, which is completely contrary to a free market, and ultimately undermines the end user experience of having a trusted, secure store. Perhaps Google or Apple’s power is so strong as to warrant regulation - but…

> Convince them this will lead to more growth and you’ll get your wish.

There's actually a good case to be made in that favor.

Letting Apple strangle thousands of app developers and prevent business cases that would actually find customers from being implemented because of restrictive app store rules does not result in a single additional employment at Apple, but only in a few more billions of revenue at Apple and maybe a few more billions of fantasy market cap.

However, doing the opposite would strengthen these thousands of market participants, allow them to implement business cases that aren't feasible with a 30% Apple tax or due to other arbitrary store restrictions, and to do that, lots of people must be employed. High-skilled people with high salaries.

If the primary goal is to strengthen your actual, real economy, not pushing the stock market, I would root for the latter approach, not the former.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#268

Post by dwaite »

donmcronald wrote: post #169
pb7 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is your computer; you have a right to that hardware. But they only licensed you the OS and the hardware only supports that OS (which you acknowledged and agreed to when you bought it) so you can call it what you want, but you can’t force another entity to do what pleases you. The courts will decide that and it will set a pretty significant precedent.

You're arguing for a future where you own nothing and rent everything. Look at how many industries are using the idea of software licenses to retain control over your devices after you buy them so they can render them useless, or at least less useful, unless you pay for a subscription of some type.

EULAs have existed since the 80s, with no clear distinction on when software must be considered a product equivalent to a physical good, vs when it must be considered a service. The internet did not help with the ambiguity around this distinction.

I've always felt the start of a proper solution would have been to have the author distinguish whether they were selling products or services - choosing between copyright, patents and first sale doctrine for products, and trade secret protection only for services.

Now that the global economy is based on computer software, it would be a long and difficult process to make changes.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#269

Post by rdslw »

parasubvert wrote: post #207
hackingthenews wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Apple and Google is doing is in many ways effectively price control and inhibits free market dynamics. For example Apple demand that app developers price their apps in the app store similar to the same service in other stores (website, Google play store, etc), even though they are taking a huge 30% cut. So Spotify can't price their product 30% more expensive in the app store, which makes the app store appear com…

Those pricing tactics are standard retail practices when dealing with large chains (“we will not be undersold”). This is why most items have an MSRP: to provide transparency across all retailers. With software it’s of course easy to say that it’s a different product in different platforms. Which is why Apple used legal licensing to make Apps feel more like traditional products. Arguably this makes easier for consumer…

Nope.

Lets stick to the ‘no lower pirce than apple store’. This is very and clearly anti competitive tactic. Only side (apple) with significant leverage can use it. In every other situation it is not possible.

And to make it clear: this point is anti competitive, while you re completly skipping this topic concentrating on apple vs developer, because it harms (increases of price) consumers.

Multiple datapoints on this available, the best one is the very own of apple: mac os store. It is a ghost town.

Ios store would be instantly the same ghost if there existed even one ios app store alternative.

P.S. reminder: im addressing your mistake of ‘this is not anticompetitive’.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#270

Post by nodamage »

apatters wrote: post #224
nodamage wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Market power is the ability to coerce people into paying more for something via a mechanism other than actually offering a better product or service. How exactly does Apple "coerce people into paying more for their phones via a mechanism other than actually offering a better product or service", and what is that mechanism? > But if a firm is able to drive up prices with impunity for any reason, it's likely they pos…

I'm not sure that they are. I did say that something smells rotten (products getting worse and prices going up), but this alone is not justification for punitive measures. The government playbook in this sort of situation is normally to start subpoena'ing emails, execs etc. and look for hard evidence of actual anti-competitive practices. They're not only interested in a business model as it's described in the media,…

Wouldn't an antitrust claim against Apple likely fail if the plaintiff cannot establish they actually have market power in the smartphone market?
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