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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#551

Post by prepend »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

Independent contractors can’t set their own rates or decline jobs.

FedEx uses independent contractors with established rates and requirements to carry.

There are many independent contractors who can’t set rates or choose not to do parts of the job.

Even my local barber shop co-op makes independent contractors have price ranges and doesn’t let them refuse walk ins if they are on duty.

When I was an independent contractor I paid into unemployment insurance so all these Uber drivers should have unemployment insurance that they pay themselves.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#552

Post by NeutronStar »

sails wrote: post #514
xapata wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had taxi drivers yell at me for how close I lived to the airport. Angrily banging the steering wheel. "I waited in line for 2 hours and I get this fucking fare!?" Then they drive maniacally fast, weaving through traffic hoping to catch the tail end of passengers disembarking my flight. Mildly terrifying. Uber and Lyft were so welcome.

I had the same thing, but the driver dropped his phone off with a friend that was still "within the airport" as we drove out the airpot so that he didn't lose his virtual place. He was pretty upset with me.

So his employer didn't pay him enough on short trips, so he's mad at the customer. Nice.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#553

Post by Game_Ender »

URSpider94 wrote: post #491

We have long ago decided that we don’t let people give away certain rights, even if they do it freely, even if they want to. I can’t work for a business for free, or for below minimum wage, even if I call myself an “unpaid intern”. I can’t work for a business as a child (below working age). I can’t ask a business not to withhold income tax from my paycheck, or to not pay their half of the social security tax, or with…

> dictate every aspect of the transaction

Uber let’s drivers set their own rates in CA [0]. What is also interesting is that before Lyft/Uber many taxi drivers were contractors renting their cars for an hourly rate. With rates set by the government, it’s really not much different than “rideshare”, just less flexible for them and the customer.

One issue is the type of market transport is and the variability in demand. You can do just a few Lyft trips, or just 1 and then do something else. CA employment law does not allow “micro shifts” like that, you have to pay the employees for a few hours. With no government restriction the market works itself out, with a large number of people who work a bit at peak supplementing those who are more full time. I think the legislature took the lazy way out, they could of set up rules for minimum compensation, benefits, And worker protection without the rest of the employment baggage.

0 - https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#554

Post by prepend »

CarbyAu wrote: post #467
ng12 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, next time I take a consulting gig I'll be sure to turn down the jira tickets I don't want to do.

If you were to have a separate contract for every Jira ticket that would be your call to make. Unusual, but fine.

First, Uber doesn’t have separate contracts for every ride.

If a contractor had a contract to accept or decline every jira ticket (although I don’t see anyone ever forming that contract), if they declines too many tickets they would no longer have the option to pick.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#555

Post by Game_Ender »

ram_rar wrote: post #80
ccktlmazeltov wrote: post #71

This is all a shit show because the infrastructures in place are currently doomed for the market to succeed: - no healthcare means you're a slave of whatever you can find, - tipping culture means your employer can pay you shit

+1 for tipping culture. I just dont get it, why can employers pay their fair share, instead of expecting customers to foot the bill.

The drivers wanted in app tips. I think Lyft and Uber set rates assuming no tips, because usually people don’t tip and they get enough government heat already. They don’t want to end up like Door Dash and start using tips to explicitly cover base rates.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#556

Post by fastball »

bgorman wrote: post #270
Retric wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quality is debatable but none of eBay, Amazon, or Etsy enforce prices. Fundamentally choosing prices is what defines markets, trying to set them is the actions of an employer.

This is just fundamentally wrong. As a kid I refereed soccer games. There was a set cost structure for each game depending on age group and whether I was assistant referee or center referee. There was a system where I could sign up in advance if I wanted the work or not. Uber drivers know exactly what they are getting into and they are free to quit at any time. I was not an employee of the soccer leagues, I was an in…

Yeah, to me a contractor is just someone that does one-offs. All these other things (setting prices, hours, etc) never actually struck me as accurate.

A contractor is someone you hire to perform a particular piece of work. An employee is someone you hire for their skill who is then expected to do many (sometimes varied) pieces of work.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#557

Post by fastball »

chrischen wrote: post #544
Retric wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quality is debatable but none of eBay, Amazon, or Etsy enforce prices. Fundamentally choosing prices is what defines markets, trying to set them is the actions of an employer.

If you let people set prices some will set absurdly high prices. For good user experience those get filtered out. What gets left is the system that we currently have which is in fact price that is set by drivers—just not explicitly. When there's more drivers in the area, prices drop, when there are few drivers, prices go up. That's how it works and it makes little sense to revise the UI to present nonsensical prices…

It's not really set by the drivers either, its set by the market. Uber is just a market maker. Prices too high and passengers won't use the service. Prices too low and drivers won't drive. The whole goal of Uber is to find the ideal price to maximize capacity.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#558

Post by icebraining »

ezoe wrote: post #527
JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

In my country, it's illegal for the taxi driver to decline the customer unless it has valid reasons(the customer is violent or threatening, does not satisfy the hygiene standard, road is damaged etc). I think it's a fair regulation for it will casually lead to the discrimination. Also, in my country, being a taxi driver requires special license and certified car so Uber/Lyft doesn't offer the service. They don't want…

How is that regulation enforced?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#559

Post by fastball »

Honestly I think all of these ideas about what isn't and is a contractor are wayyyy over-specified.

To my mind, a contractor has always been just someone you are hiring for a particular piece of work. It's about one-offs. You are not hiring them for a year, in which time they will do an indeterminate number of pieces of work. That is what an employee with a salary is for. You are hiring them to do a particular piece of work. That is why you pay them per piece of work. So to me, the simplest (and only) test should be: "are you paying them per piece of work?". If yes, contractor. If no, employee.

I can't think of any occupation where the "employee" is getting paid on a per-task basis (rides in this case) and I would consider them an employee.

If I hire someone to write blog posts for me, and I pay them per blog post, they're a contractor. The employee version is someone I pay a set salary to based on their skillset, and then they output some indeterminate amount of work.

If I hire someone to watch my kids for me, and I pay them per time they watch my kids, they're a contractor, not an employee. The employee version is a nanny who lives in my home.

If someone is getting paid each time they perform a ride (and not otherwise), they're a contractor. An employee is someone that you are paying even when they're not driving.

I don't think "setting prices", "choosing which hours", etc. has anything to do with it.

If I hire someone to write a blog post for me this morning and tell them I need it by lunch time, I'm not giving them a choice of when they want to work – they need to do it now. But they're still clearly a contractor.

The question remains whether or not contractors under this definition need similar protections that are afforded to employees, and I definitely think this is a question worth debating/considering. But California conflating everything to be an employee seems like the worst way to approach the issue.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#560

Post by coldpie »

yibg wrote: post #304
coldpie wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are you saying that freelancing and independent contracting [and small business owners] should not be permitted under any circumstances It's a good question and I'm not sure. I think my answer is some weak form of "yes." My goal is to enforce a good work-life balance, I think society benefits from a healthy workforce. So they wouldn't be impermissible per se, but they should meet those same requirements. However, o…

You've lost me now. You've gone between multiple topics and I don't really understand what your stance is. Are you saying: - There should be a limit on number of hours worked (regardless of type of employment). - Everyone should be an employee, and not a freelancer or otherwise independently employed - Everyone should get benefits Or all 3? Those are all to me at least independent things. You can have work hour limit…

> - Everyone should get benefits

Yes.

> - There should be a limit on number of hours worked (regardless of type of employment).

I'm not getting into the specifics, my point is everyone should get the worker protections we have developed over the decades. If that includes mandatory time off, great, but it doesn't have to. I pointed to France's model as one potential example of how it might apply to non-employees like contractors.

> - Everyone should be an employee, and not a freelancer or otherwise independently employed

I don't care about the categorization so long as the worker protection regulations are being met.

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