Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#501

Post by URSpider94 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 5:54 AM UTC

neosat wrote: post #500

URSpider94 wrote: post #491

We have long ago decided that we don’t let people give away certain rights, even if they do it freely, even if they want to. I can’t work for a business for free, or for below minimum wage, even if I call myself an “unpaid intern”. I can’t work for a business as a child (below working age). I can’t ask a business not to withhold income tax from my paycheck, or to not pay their half of the social security tax, or with…

> other than when the drivers choose to work. That's not true. What about who else they can work for? That's not enforced either. Which other businesses commonly allow people to work when they want, work for whatever competition they want, take any amount of 'vacation' in between? You're fitting something new into an existing category by handwaving away lot of important nuance, when it is exactly this nuance that mak…

At least in California, an employer has virtually no say about who you work for in your off hours. If you want to work for McDonald’s 9-5 and Wendy’s 6-midnight, it’s nobody’s business but yours.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#502

Post by fellowniusmonk » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 5:57 AM UTC

xapata wrote: post #488

lathiat wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem with Taxi drivers as well. Have had friends too close to the airport miss flights because drivers keep rejecting the fare because it goes to drivers near the airport who want a long trip.

I've had taxi drivers yell at me for how close I lived to the airport. Angrily banging the steering wheel. "I waited in line for 2 hours and I get this fucking fare!?" Then they drive maniacally fast, weaving through traffic hoping to catch the tail end of passengers disembarking my flight. Mildly terrifying. Uber and Lyft were so welcome.

I have had this exact experience, Taxi's are the worst and there is 0 feedback loop to improve quality. I once had a taxi driver yell at me and ask me why I didn't just take an uber if I live so close to the airport. Good riddance to traditional taxis (in all but a few cities where they are still marginally more convenient in my experience).

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#503

Post by closeparen » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 6:03 AM UTC

jluxenberg wrote: post #285

bpodgursky wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IRS deprecation is very far above the costs in actual practice. It's a very conservative number.

I think the IRS number might be spot on. Quick math: ($25,000 cost to buy car new - $4,000 residual value at end-of-life ) / 100,000 miles usable lifetime = $0.21/mi depreciation of value $3.22 / gallon * (1 / (17 mi / gal fuel efficiency)) = $0.19/mi for fuel Maintenance: $40 per oil change / 8,000 miles = $0.01 / mi $600 tire change / 60,000 miles = $0.01 / mi $1,186 average yearly repair / 16,000 average miles dri…

It's an exceptionally poor strategy to drop $25k on a new car that only gets 17mpg when your intention is to be a rideshare driver. A purely internal-combustion Civic or Corolla gets twice that. A Prius more than 3x. So do the ones that are 3-4 years old already. And the Prius will probably last closer to 200k miles.

I would guess that the ridesharing companies will buy fleets before they'll pay Chevy Tahoe rates for compact sedans.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#504

Post by URSpider94 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 6:05 AM UTC

hammock wrote: post #56

Skunkleton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...Uber drivers reported earning $13.47 per hour, which means that on average, drivers report that their car is costing them over $6 per hour to operate. If you were to drive full time, that would get you about 27k/year, which is about the average income that a taxi driver makes. Rideshare companies are asking you to take more personal financial risk than you might as a taxi driver, but giving you more flexibility.…

Who says driving for Uber/Lyft should be a full-time job, or statutorily viable as a full-time job? If you consider it only as a second or third job, then it makes a lot more sense that your second or third job is not going to pay as well or have the same benefits as your first job. Those aspects would be expected and reasonable. The low-risk, high-reward jobs fill your primary job slot, then you seek other options a…

This is a common logical fallacy promoted by low-wage employers. To turn it around, why should anyone be happy to make LESS per hour for the extra hours in a day they are working?

Fast food restaurants like to argue that they keep their wages low because their workers are young students who just want some pocket money for a car or concert tickets. If you’ve walked into a McDonalds lately, you may have noticed that more of their employees are middle aged folks or even seniors who are trying to supplement their retirement savings.

I often ask my rideshare driver about why they drive, how long they’ve been driving, etc. Very few of them are driving as a hobby or to pick up some side cash. For most of them, it’s their main source of income.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#505

Post by throwawaygh » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 6:09 AM UTC

gwright wrote: post #259

throwawaygh wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any remotely competent student of history can foresee occasional economic crises with high unemployment. That’s why we have a national unemployment insurance scheme. Maybe you don’t foresee a pandemic, but only in the same way that you don’t foresee getting side-swiped when a car passes you while blowing its tire. Or having your house’s roof ripped off by a tornado. Totally unforeseeable events , but somewhat predica…

I don't know who "we" is in your statement, but unemployment insurance is state by state in the US, not national.

Yes, all of them, literally all 50. No exception.

Do we have public school available nationally?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#506

Post by sida » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 6:09 AM UTC

URSpider94 wrote: post #501

neosat wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> other than when the drivers choose to work. That's not true. What about who else they can work for? That's not enforced either. Which other businesses commonly allow people to work when they want, work for whatever competition they want, take any amount of 'vacation' in between? You're fitting something new into an existing category by handwaving away lot of important nuance, when it is exactly this nuance that mak…

At least in California, an employer has virtually no say about who you work for in your off hours. If you want to work for McDonald’s 9-5 and Wendy’s 6-midnight, it’s nobody’s business but yours.

But while you are working at macdonalds you cannot simultaneously be working for KFC.

That’s what a uber/lyft drivers do

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#507

Post by throwawaygh » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 6:15 AM UTC

mardifoufs wrote: post #340

throwawaygh wrote: post #72

When companies like Uber/Lyft depend on safety nets like unemployment without ever paying into the system, what’s happening is that our children are paying for returns on VC capital. People profiting from these types of companies should feel bad about themselves.

That's pretty much the total opposite of what's happening right now. Uber (and the recent group of "tech but not really" unicorns in general) have if anything burnt hundreds of billions of VC/PE money thus directly subsidizing the costs of hundreds of millions of users, for very slim profits at best. Yes, it's because they are expecting future returns on their "burnt" money. But considering the risks, the enormous am…

So, the folks who make money on this massive arbitrage of the welfare state can feel bad on their yachts and the ones who lost money can feel bad on their slightly smaller yachts.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#508

Post by sixstringtheory » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 6:17 AM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #454

sixstringtheory wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it actually simultaneous? Of course drivers use multiple services, but I’ve never taken a ride with uber where the driver had passengers from lyft in the car, eg.

Drivers usually keep both apps open and active, then accept the first dispatch they receive and temporarily go offline on the other app while finishing the trip. Then lather, rinse, repeat.

I used to work multiple jobs at different restaurants, where I’d do a morning shift at one and an evening shift at the other. They could be considered competitors.

What is the difference between what I did and what drivers do, besides the frequency of and duration of shifts? I don’t know what kind of laws might govern requirements here. Could be different between cities/states/countries, too.

Now, maybe they’d dictate requirements for things like shift duration if drivers were considered “actual employees” but then they’d presumably also be receiving other benefits that might obviate the need to drive for multiple services.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#509

Post by ganafagol » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 6:21 AM UTC

perryizgr8 wrote: post #449

strbean wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the whole declining rides thing... Wouldn't most companies keep performance stats for their contractors, and if one started refusing lots of jobs, stop giving them work? Seems like Uber is just automating what is a normal part of working with a contractor. With regards to unemployment insurance, this is really a hole in our safety net. Regardless of whether Uber drivers should be considered independent cont…

> we should have a solution for independent contractors being put out of work. We have one age old solution for this problem. It's called savings.

Hard to do for people living paycheck to paycheck. Then they should refuse the job you say? Yeah right then they don't even have that little paycheck anymore.

There is a power imbalance here, and that's the root issue. The employee and the employer are not on the same level in terms of negotiating power. Hard for tech people like the HN crowd to realize, but in most areas outside overpaid overdemanded software engineering that's reality.

The first industrial revolution showed this pretty dramatically. The solution was workers rights, unions etc. Those things that others here call bureaucrats with a those-people-just-want-to-destroy-the-free-market negative subtone.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#510

Post by ur-whale » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 6:26 AM UTC

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

> drivers tell me they want to stay independent

This whole business has nothing to do with the drivers, neither what they want, what's good for them or even what's good for customers.

It's about a class of politicians (unions and the leftist politicians they back/finance) scared to death to see their historical grip on power disappear because of a paradigm shift and who are using the people's goody-two-shoes knee-jerk reflexes to try and regain said grip.