Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#251

Post by RIMR » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

Sure, Uber drivers aren't forced to work at Uber specifically, but everyone is obligated to work in a capitalist society if they want to survive, so it is important that employers in general are bound by laws that protect workers.

In this case, California created new laws in response to employee abuses at Uber and Lyft.

This notion that Uber and Lyft drivers can afford to quit and find a new career is infantile. The real world does not work that way, and people who labor for low wages should be protected from abuse.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#252

Post by lhorie » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

dmode wrote: post #236

ReaLNero wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California is about 5% of revenue for Uber.

CA is 12% of Uber's revenue and 25% of Lyft's revenue

Source? I've seen many different figures (including a very reliable source that stated it was in the single digits for Uber)

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#253

Post by treeman79 » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #210

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

I feel like there is a general pattern. The left tends to prioritize all the good ideas: gender equality, racial equality, income gaps, etc. The right tends to prioritize systems that actually function in the real world with real people who are sometimes jealous, stupid, unethical, liars, etc. This is just a case where the first group has run amok without talking to the second group. It's the good idea of everyone sh…

Good insight.

Coming together is tricky when there is no common grounds.

One side wants wealth to be fairly Evenly distributed to help the poor.

The other side helps the poor by creating so much wealth that that most poor people have a lot of wealth.

These days you can be considered poor and have housing, ac, heat, tv, video games, maybe a car, and weight problems because food is so cheap.

This only leaves those who truly can not or will not work. Severe physical or mental illness, etc.

Some can’t stand that inequality exists. Others “know” that destroying inequality means we create more poor people.

That’s not even touching right to own body vs right to life crowd. There is almost no middle ground in that battle. Either it’s removing a sac of cells or killing a baby. Maybe some wiggle room at the start, but none by end

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#254

Post by RIMR » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #72

When companies like Uber/Lyft depend on safety nets like unemployment without ever paying into the system, what’s happening is that our children are paying for returns on VC capital. People profiting from these types of companies should feel bad about themselves.

In what situation aren't investors borrowing from the future? That's basically the entire state of our economy right now: that the wealthy older generation invested heavily in the future, and then squandered that investment and stuck the younger generations with the bill.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#255

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

Judgmentality wrote: post #226

yunderalls wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I laughed at this, but I do think I should point out that in a democracy it's good for people to have opinions about things that aren't their profession.

I think it's less about people having opinions and more about people being so self-righteous about something they don't understand as well as they think they do.

[deleted]

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#256

Post by coldpie » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

orangecat wrote: post #242

coldpie wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both. I'm not an employment law expert, but things like mandatory breaks, working conditions, PTO (pa/maternal leave, etc.). If you work a full time job, you are entitled to a comfortable life with a healthy work/life balance.

Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying that freelancing and independent contracting should not be permitted under any circumstances? Is there no sufficient amount of money where you'd acknowledge that workers are not being exploited in a fee-for-service structure? And what about small business owners, who effectively have zero paid leave or vacation?

> are you saying that freelancing and independent contracting [and small business owners] should not be permitted under any circumstances

It's a good question and I'm not sure. I think my answer is some weak form of "yes." My goal is to enforce a good work-life balance, I think society benefits from a healthy workforce. So they wouldn't be impermissible per se, but they should meet those same requirements. However, obviously that's really hard to enforce for a contractor type situation, and some people genuinely thrive in their jobs in a healthy way. So, I don't know what the right balance is. I believe France has some mandatory maximum work hours regulations. Those might be interesting to look into.

I know some will argue this point, but I really do think it's clear that gig workers don't fall into those two categories, regardless. The power dynamics are totally upside-down between traditional independent contractors and SBOs, and Uber/Lyft drivers.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#257

Post by LegitShady » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

deminature wrote: post #131

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

The RideShareGuy is the most prominent blog for drivers and their annual survey seems to reflect that [1] >66% of drivers said they wanted to be independent contractors vs 15.8% who wanted to be an employee [1] https://therideshareguy.com/uber-driver-survey/

The secret is that your status has nothing to do with what you want but the terms of employment. It doesn't matter if 100% of them want to be contractors the judge just ruled it doesn't count as contractors by law.

If Uber wants contractors they need to make sure the terms of their employment follow the law, including classification.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#258

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 9:32 PM UTC

strbean wrote: post #231

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

Regarding the whole declining rides thing... Wouldn't most companies keep performance stats for their contractors, and if one started refusing lots of jobs, stop giving them work? Seems like Uber is just automating what is a normal part of working with a contractor. With regards to unemployment insurance, this is really a hole in our safety net. Regardless of whether Uber drivers should be considered independent cont…

> Wouldn't most companies keep performance stats for their contractors, and if one started refusing lots of jobs, stop giving them work? Seems like Uber is just automating what is a normal part of working with a contractor.

The easiest way to allow drivers to set rates, and I'm not sure if there is some reason they haven't already done this, is to just let the driver tell the app their rate, so that they wouldn't even be offered rides below it (which naturally might mean they don't get as many), and the service would just give the ride to the driver in the area with the best rate. Obviously that would mean that if you set a lower rate you'd get more rides.

> we should have a solution for independent contractors being put out of work.

It's kind of non-applicable to the situation though, because when you have market pricing like this, you never really get put out of work, it's just that the amount you get paid may vary (and fall below the point where you seek other employment). Does Uber even do layoffs of contractors?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#259

Post by gwright » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #168

marcinzm wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is a one-off "world is burning down" case which no one planned for or expected. Hardy a long term plan by the VCs to take advantage of everyone else. I'm guessing unemployment insurance didn't cover a lot of the rest of the unemployed either for COVID (as it ran out due to never being designed for this situation) so it came from taxes. In which case no one paid into the social safety net except through taxes (w…

Any remotely competent student of history can foresee occasional economic crises with high unemployment. That’s why we have a national unemployment insurance scheme. Maybe you don’t foresee a pandemic, but only in the same way that you don’t foresee getting side-swiped when a car passes you while blowing its tire. Or having your house’s roof ripped off by a tornado. Totally unforeseeable events , but somewhat predica…

I don't know who "we" is in your statement, but unemployment insurance is state by state in the US, not national.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#260

Post by viscanti » Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

solutron wrote: post #248

This is a symptom of the core, underlying problem. The coupling between employer, employee and health care needs to be undone. Employers aren't healthcare providers, we don't need additional middle-men and bureaucracy dictating, by proxy, how people receive care and from who. Universal healthcare would let Uber and Lyft continue to do what their primary focus is, and drivers would be able to do whatever they want wor…

It's crazy to see the same politicians who push for universal healthcare also push for more coupling of employment to healthcare.