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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#301

Post by mardifoufs »

Retric wrote: post #239
bsimpson wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We expect eBay/Amazon/Etsy to enforce standards on their platforms, but no one would argue that their sellers are employees. I'm not convinced that having price and ride quality standards invalidates the contractor relationship.

Quality is debatable but none of eBay, Amazon, or Etsy enforce prices. Fundamentally choosing prices is what defines markets, trying to set them is the actions of an employer.

I'm not sure but I think amazon enforces some kind of forced price adjustment policy. IIRC they change the prices if their algo detect lower prices somewhere else on the internet or on similar listings. I'll try to find the WSJ article where I've read about this.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#302

Post by labcomputer »

bsder wrote: post #287
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

> overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. However, I overwhelmingly don't want to pay for their healthcare or food stamps because they aren't earning enough money. I personally think that AB5 doesn't go far enough. If you employ people for more than 40 hours, you should owe healthcare and benefits, period . It doesn't matter whether those 40 hours are one person or 10 people or whether the p…

Sure, but you can't always get what you want.

Not every business model is economically viable, and (at a guess) rideshare-drivers-as-employees might be one of those un-viable models.

You can ban exploiting labor, you can force companies to share more with the workers, but you can't legislate well-paying jobs into existence. You might view Uber as an exploitative employer, but it isn't some wildly-profitable company that is failing to share its bountiful profits with the workers.

I don't care whether Uber and Lyft stop doing business in CA as a result of AB5, but I think that's a fairly predictable outcome.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#303

Post by monadic2 »

dcftoapv wrote: post #187
dcftoapv wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Los Angeles taxi union prevented (read: bribed and coerced) the state / city government from installing a train from LAX to DTLA because they were rolling in cash. Then, they got pissed about Uber, and had a rule enacted that forced passengers to take a bus to an external lot which turned the world's worst airport congestion into a way worse situation. It is not unrealistic to think that they are a driving force…

@tom No, it's not being built. The train that is currently under construction will connect the airport terminals to a cab stand and car rental station less than a mile from the airport because LA taxi drivers threw a shit fit when they suggested building a train into downtown and Santa Monica. By the way, we're paying $4 billion for that. $4 billion to carry passengers less than a mile from the airport so they can th…

Blame the corrupt officials that enabled this, you can hardly blame a union for trying to act in their own self interest. They don't represent you but the city does.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#304

Post by yibg »

coldpie wrote: post #256
orangecat wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying that freelancing and independent contracting should not be permitted under any circumstances? Is there no sufficient amount of money where you'd acknowledge that workers are not being exploited in a fee-for-service structure? And what about small business owners, who effectively have zero paid leave or vacation?

> are you saying that freelancing and independent contracting [and small business owners] should not be permitted under any circumstances It's a good question and I'm not sure. I think my answer is some weak form of "yes." My goal is to enforce a good work-life balance, I think society benefits from a healthy workforce. So they wouldn't be impermissible per se, but they should meet those same requirements. However, o…

You've lost me now. You've gone between multiple topics and I don't really understand what your stance is. Are you saying:

- There should be a limit on number of hours worked (regardless of type of employment).

- Everyone should be an employee, and not a freelancer or otherwise independently employed

- Everyone should get benefits

Or all 3? Those are all to me at least independent things. You can have work hour limitations as a contractor or you can be an overworked employee.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#305

Post by dgellow »

coldpie wrote: post #256
orangecat wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying that freelancing and independent contracting should not be permitted under any circumstances? Is there no sufficient amount of money where you'd acknowledge that workers are not being exploited in a fee-for-service structure? And what about small business owners, who effectively have zero paid leave or vacation?

> are you saying that freelancing and independent contracting [and small business owners] should not be permitted under any circumstances It's a good question and I'm not sure. I think my answer is some weak form of "yes." My goal is to enforce a good work-life balance, I think society benefits from a healthy workforce. So they wouldn't be impermissible per se, but they should meet those same requirements. However, o…

> So, I don't know what the right balance is. I believe France has some mandatory maximum work hours regulations. Those might be interesting to look into.

I never thought I would see the French system pointed to as a potential example. If you’re talking about the 35h week keep in mind that it is a really contentious topic there!

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#306

Post by labcomputer »

all_blue_chucks wrote: post #154
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

We should all care. Uber doesn't provide health insurance. Instead Uber drivers get their healthcare costs covered by the rest of us (either via ACA subsidies or written-off care provided to the uninsured).

> Uber drivers get their healthcare costs covered by the rest of us

So what? People without jobs also get their healthcare covered by MediCal (with zero out of pocket expenses). Is that also a problem? Wouldn't it be better if we had universal healthcare?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#307

Post by yibg »

coldpie wrote: post #78
hammock wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I was curious about what drivers think. I guess they're not happy [1] but want to be independent contractors still [2]. If the employers don't want the change... and the employees don't want the change... and the customers don't want the change... and the shareholders don't want the change... and the residents of California don't want the change (exhibited by the threads yesterday with outcry over the decision to sh…

I'm not a resident of California (rather, Minnesota), but I do want it to change. I don't use gig services because I think anyone doing 40[1] hours of work deserves a wage they can live off of, along all the other employment protections we've worked so hard to implement. Gig services are cheap because they don't meet that requirement. If gig services were required to meet that minimum wage and workers' rights, then I…

Do you also not eat at small independent restaurants? The owners also don't meet the same requirements, and in many cases make even less than uber drivers.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#308

Post by bhupy »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #258
strbean wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the whole declining rides thing... Wouldn't most companies keep performance stats for their contractors, and if one started refusing lots of jobs, stop giving them work? Seems like Uber is just automating what is a normal part of working with a contractor. With regards to unemployment insurance, this is really a hole in our safety net. Regardless of whether Uber drivers should be considered independent cont…

> Wouldn't most companies keep performance stats for their contractors, and if one started refusing lots of jobs, stop giving them work? Seems like Uber is just automating what is a normal part of working with a contractor. The easiest way to allow drivers to set rates, and I'm not sure if there is some reason they haven't already done this, is to just let the driver tell the app their rate, so that they wouldn't eve…

Uber now lets drivers set their own rates, with a multiplier: https://therideshareguy.com/set-your-own-rates-uber-feature/

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#309

Post by chillwaves »

_fq4v wrote: post #288
TeaDrunk wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't we already go through this line of reasoning during the industrial revolution? Didn't we already have our muckraking moments to show exactly why this line of reasoning is full of assumptions, totally devoid and dissociated from the actual reality of people's lives?

Given that the industrial revolution in retrospect has clearly improved the lot of the entire world, comparing uber to the capitalists of the industrial revolution in attempt to castigate them is actually quite laughable.

Those industrialist were doing a great job of putting children in factories!

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#310

Post by CogitoCogito »

deminature wrote: post #131
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

The RideShareGuy is the most prominent blog for drivers and their annual survey seems to reflect that [1] >66% of drivers said they wanted to be independent contractors vs 15.8% who wanted to be an employee [1] https://therideshareguy.com/uber-driver-survey/

Assuming that poll is representative of the drivers' will at large, I guess then hopefully Uber and Lyft can satisfy these drivers by following the regulations required for them to be classified as independent contractors.
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